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Author Topic: How long we been around?  (Read 18981 times)
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« Reply #90: October 20, 2008, 01:36:03 pm »

as pointed out earlier the scientific world is constantly shifting fact/truth and the laws of physics as we know them are immutable, right?..however, there are always exceptions..

That doesn't mean that every cool idea anyone comes up with is viable, though.
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« Reply #91: October 20, 2008, 01:38:53 pm »

Actually, if i remember correctly, he drew his inspiration from many things, including the natural world..as pointed out earlier the scientific world is constantly shifting fact/truth and the laws of physics as we know them are immutable, right?..however, there are always exceptions..

where on earth are you going with this?  and what does any of this have to do with "I like this theory of the earth being created even though it holds absolutely no scientific proof"?

(and the laws of physics are immutable.  we just don't know all of them yet)
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« Reply #92: October 20, 2008, 01:53:45 pm »

That doesn't mean that every cool idea anyone comes up with is viable, though.

Ultimately its personal choice, or speaking from a purely scientific point of view I imagine you could reject whatever cool idea being promoted  on the basis it was not self evident, but since science isnt omnipotent, I personally choose to leave room for the unknown
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« Reply #93: October 20, 2008, 02:03:08 pm »

Ultimately its personal choice, or speaking from a purely scientific point of view I imagine you could reject whatever cool idea being promoted  on the basis it was not self evident, but since science isnt omnipotent, I personally choose to leave room for the unknown

It's not that it's not self-evident, but that the data available does not support it.  It doesn't have to be immediately obvious, but there does have to be something to support it.  Otherwise it's nothing more than an idea; it has no scientific substance, no weight, nothing more than someone thinking it's cool.

You can personally choose to say, "we don't know that this didn't happen, so I think that it did" all you want.  That doesn't make it a scientifically supportable position, and it probably means that no one here is really going to accept your position, not when there are other theories with more evidence behind them out there.

But again--if this is something that is meaningful to you on a spiritual or religious level, why does it need scientific backing?
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« Reply #94: October 20, 2008, 02:24:15 pm »


But again--if this is something that is meaningful to you on a spiritual or religious level, why does it need scientific backing?

Is there any reason you can't have both? Look its evident I'm not a scientist by profession Grin, but of course as a witch magick operates (at times) using the laws of the universe.  For me there is a definite blending of the two diciplines, but I'm sure this idea belongs in a thread all its own. Huh

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« Reply #95: October 20, 2008, 02:36:36 pm »

Is there any reason you can't have both?

Not if science actually does back the things that are meaningful to you on a spiritual or religious level.  If it doesn't, as in this case, then yes.  There is a reason why you can't have both.  If the science isn't there, it isn't there, and no amount of trying to redefine science will change that in anyone's eyes but your own.

Why do you need the scientific backing, though?  You haven't addressed that.  Why is it so important to you that this theory be scientifically viable?  What does it matter?  If it's a meaningful creation myth to you, use it--as a myth, though, not as scientific fact.  There's absolutely nothing wrong with a religious story being not factually true. 

Hell, do you know how much ignoring of science it would take to make my mythological structure factually true?  We'll start with the sun being a ball of burning gas around which the Earth revolves rather than pulled behind a chariot across the sky and go from there.  But it doesn't matter, because the meaning they convey is the same whether they're made-up stories or scientifically supported facts.
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« Reply #96: October 20, 2008, 02:37:22 pm »

Is there any reason you can't have both? Look its evident I'm not a scientist by profession Grin, but of course as a witch magick operates (at times) using the laws of the universe.  For me there is a definite blending of the two diciplines, but I'm sure this idea belongs in a thread all its own. Huh

Frankly it's not likely you're going to get both. If you want UPG, that's fine. Absolutely nothing wrong with it. But trying to make it into something it's not won't work here. Maybe some other board will allow you to fuzz the line between science and wishful thinking, but there are too many posters here who do have a scientific background to agree with you.

My advice? Don't make what you wish for sound like something that just walked out of a science lab. You're going to get called on it and since you won't be able to back it up, you're going to end up looking foolish and being very, very frustrated.
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« Reply #97: October 20, 2008, 03:02:13 pm »

Not if science actually does back the things that are meaningful to you on a spiritual or religious level.  If it doesn't, as in this case, then yes.  There is a reason why you can't have both.  If the science isn't there, it isn't there, and no amount of trying to redefine science will change that in anyone's eyes but your own.

Why do you need the scientific backing, though?  You haven't addressed that.  Why is it so important to you that this theory be scientifically viable?  What does it matter?  If it's a meaningful creation myth to you, use it--as a myth, though, not as scientific fact.  There's absolutely nothing wrong with a religious story being not factually true. 

Hell, do you know how much ignoring of science it would take to make my mythological structure factually true?  We'll start with the sun being a ball of burning gas around which the Earth revolves rather than pulled behind a chariot across the sky and go from there.  But it doesn't matter, because the meaning they convey is the same whether they're made-up stories or scientifically supported facts.

mmm, Your right, its not imperative that I prove this idea has any merit to anyone..for proving or entirely disproving it wouldnt change a thing, in my universe, but  if I may digress from the interesting subject at hand for a moment,  understanding the how/why magick  is of empirical interest to me..I'm enjoying our exchange btw.. Smiley
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« Reply #98: October 20, 2008, 03:05:29 pm »

Frankly it's not likely you're going to get both. If you want UPG, that's fine. Absolutely nothing wrong with it. But trying to make it into something it's not won't work here. Maybe some other board will allow you to fuzz the line between science and wishful thinking, but there are too many posters here who do have a scientific background to agree with you.

My advice? Don't make what you wish for sound like something that just walked out of a science lab. You're going to get called on it and since you won't be able to back it up, you're going to end up looking foolish and being very, very frustrated.

Your advise is appreciated.  As for looking foolish to mortal scientists, I think I can handle it, otherwise I wouldnt have replied.   Smiley
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« Reply #99: October 20, 2008, 03:09:15 pm »

Your advise is appreciated.  As for looking foolish to mortal scientists, I think I can handle it, otherwise I wouldnt have replied.   Smiley

Just so long as you know that's what's going to happen on this board...most of the people you run into here will only engage on this sort of thing a few times before they walk away and won't engage in further conversations.
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« Reply #100: October 20, 2008, 03:12:37 pm »

mmm, Your right, its not imperative that I prove this idea has any merit to anyone..for proving or entirely disproving it wouldnt change a thing, in my universe, but  if I may digress from the interesting subject at hand for a moment,  understanding the how/why magick  is of empirical interest to me..I'm enjoying our exchange btw.. Smiley

I really don't mean to be nitpicky, but could I ask a favor?  Could you please stop using the random italics?  It makes your posts a little difficult to read.
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« Reply #101: October 20, 2008, 03:57:28 pm »

Frankly it's not likely you're going to get both. If you want UPG, that's fine. Absolutely nothing wrong with it. But trying to make it into something it's not won't work here. Maybe some other board will allow you to fuzz the line between science and wishful thinking, but there are too many posters here who do have a scientific background to agree with you.

My advice? Don't make what you wish for sound like something that just walked out of a science lab. You're going to get called on it and since you won't be able to back it up, you're going to end up looking foolish and being very, very frustrated.

ok, I'm a quite confused, I thought this was a thread on Philosophy, not hard data scientifics?  As far as I've understood, Philosophy is the study of general problems concerning matters such as existence, knowledge, truth, beauty, justice, validity, mind, and language.

If my ideas arent welcome here, I apologize to everyone and will cease particpation.
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« Reply #102: October 20, 2008, 03:57:55 pm »

I don't see anything wrong with having cool ideas, afterall Einstein formulated a question first, before trying to find out how it may work,

Okay, this to me suggests that you don't get the scientific process.  Yes, Einstein formulated a question before experimenting.  It's called forming a hypothesis and testing it.  Before one does that, one is looking at existing knowledge - usually with a literature review, but if you're a thorough expert on something, you may be familiar with much of the material anyway.  A research question may be to look at a different angle on previous research, looking for links between existing knowledge, or trying to push further into the unknown.

So: Existing knowledge -> Identify potential avenues of research -> formulate ideas based on current knowledge/ own ideas/ perspective -> formulate testible hypothesis -> design and carry out study.

What Einstein, or a legitimate scientist, does when forming an idea for study is not the same thing you're doing when you decide an idea is cool.


Quote
from my perspective, we are each scientists,

Sort of, if you go for that lay-scientist view point.  It's legitimate to a point, as people do formulate hypotheses and other ideas about life, and compare experiences to those.  Of course, it's not rigorous testing, and there aren't any controls for confounding variables, and plenty of people will just ignore evidence and just believe what they want to believe.  So saying everyone is a scientist is sort of true, but that doesn't make everyone an *actual* experienced and trained scientist, expert in an actual field of research.  For example, you'll be unlikely to find a scientist publishing a journal paper with the disclaimer: 'but if this doesn't match your point of view, just ignore it.'

Quote
And how we relate to the universe doesn't necessarily have to agree with anyone elses perception of fact/truth, and an idea presented and rejected by some as not relavent or factual, doesnt necessarily mean it isnt.. Smiley

None of which proves anything about science, except that people have opinions.
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« Reply #103: October 20, 2008, 03:59:39 pm »

understanding the how/why magick  is of empirical interest to me..

Sorry, empirical interest?  I'm not sure I'm familiar with the usage of 'empirical' that you're making.  Can you clarify?
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« Reply #104: October 20, 2008, 04:08:20 pm »

ok, I'm a quite confused, I thought this was a thread on Philosophy, not hard data scientifics?  As far as I've understood, Philosophy is the study of general problems concerning matters such as existence, knowledge, truth, beauty, justice, validity, mind, and language.

If my ideas arent welcome here, I apologize to everyone and will cease particpation.

Roisin Dubh,

My comment on backup isn't limited to scientific. Regardless of the thread you're in, it bears keeping in mind that this board has a heavy tilt towards scholastic backup. If that happens to be scientific, so be it. If it happens to be backup of accepted philosophical theories, that's fine too. In this thread, you've been talking about science, so that's what my comment is regarding.

In other words, while there's always the freedom for a poster to say the sky is green, that poster will have to support his/her stance before anyone on this board will go along with it. It doesn't really matter what folder or thread you're in, the same thing will apply. Support for positions may well be asked of the poster. That's simply the nature of this board.
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