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Author Topic: Harsh Talk at "Reclaiming America for Christ" Conference  (Read 12797 times)
Darkhawk
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« Reply #30: April 30, 2007, 01:06:24 pm »

Oh, I'm sure it would be at least as much of a nightmare as legalizing gay marriage has been; probably more so because you would have feminist groups rallying w/the RR.

More so, in practical terms.

Same-sex marriage rights don't actually change anything about the structural forms of marriage as practiced in the United States.  Two people, committed to each other, check.  The only thing that has to be changed is the removal of the sex discrimination.

When you get into polygamy, you have to work out how to implement it without uncriminalising bigamy (marriage fraud is still a form of fraud, and that matters).  The whole structure of intestate inheritance has to be overhauled; while the presumption of single next-of-kin is false in common law as it stands (consider elderly parent with multiple children bickering over their parent's health care), people will still flail about it.  Some people will balk over the idea of having the "you can't be forced to testify against your spouse" thing available to more than one person.  There will be great flailing about the question of whether or not marriage is transitive.  It will be a mess, and I'm not sure it's a mess that can be addressed properly with legislation; common law could probably do it, working it out over time, but common law solutions are sort of going out of vogue, and leave people vulnerable in the meantime.
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« Reply #31: April 30, 2007, 08:18:46 pm »

More so, in practical terms.

Same-sex marriage rights don't actually change anything about the structural forms of marriage as practiced in the United States.  Two people, committed to each other, check.  The only thing that has to be changed is the removal of the sex discrimination.

When you get into polygamy, you have to work out how to implement it without uncriminalising bigamy (marriage fraud is still a form of fraud, and that matters).  The whole structure of intestate inheritance has to be overhauled; while the presumption of single next-of-kin is false in common law as it stands (consider elderly parent with multiple children bickering over their parent's health care), people will still flail about it.  Some people will balk over the idea of having the "you can't be forced to testify against your spouse" thing available to more than one person.  There will be great flailing about the question of whether or not marriage is transitive.  It will be a mess, and I'm not sure it's a mess that can be addressed properly with legislation; common law could probably do it, working it out over time, but common law solutions are sort of going out of vogue, and leave people vulnerable in the meantime.

See, that's where I start seeing problems.

And also, and what I see as the BIGGEST issue: what happens if A and B are both married to C and don't like each other?  What if they disagree about care decisions and other next-of-kin things?  (again, not that this can't happen with parents and children, but there are assumptions of what it /means/ to be a spouse that need to be addressed).  What happens with divorce and property splitups?  What happens if A, B, and C are all married to each other and A wants to divorce B but not C?  Do you need to get the previous spouse's permission to marry the same person, or don't they get a say?  Do you marry one or all?

Yes, there's stuff involving businesses with multiple people, and that can be a framework .. but marriage is so much more messy.  Business partners don't (usually) live together.  Business partners don't (usually) have children together.  (and who are the parents of the child?  Who gets visitation?  Is it /only/ bio-parents, or everyone that was a partner of the mom at the time of birth, or ....)

True polygamy, with both sexes able to marry as many partners as they wish, has a number of questions that need to be addressed at some level before it can become functional in law.  Because any vagueness or loophole is going to be blown wide open sooner or later.  Probably sooner.  And every time it DOES explode, people will use it to "prove" that polygamy is immoral etc.

I would absolutely think that having some idea of how to handle divorce, property distribution, children, and marriage-permissions would be NECESSARY before polygamy could become law.  None of that is needed for gay marriage - it's all the same as het marriage, just different people in there.
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« Reply #32: April 30, 2007, 11:57:57 pm »

I would absolutely think that having some idea of how to handle divorce, property distribution, children, and marriage-permissions would be NECESSARY before polygamy could become law.  None of that is needed for gay marriage - it's all the same as het marriage, just different people in there.

Joint property vs. the other sort of way of doing property which I've forgotten the name of.  Tenancy by the entirety and what happens when the marriage or a subset of the marriages dissolves.

The complexities are huge.  Not, IMO, unresolvably so, but it's a knotty, knotty question.  Marriage is threaded through an approximate assload of other bits of law -- which is why same-sex marriage rights are so important -- and that means that anything that demands examining the structure will be a pain in the tail to actually do.
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« Reply #33: May 01, 2007, 08:40:04 am »

Joint property vs. the other sort of way of doing property which I've forgotten the name of.  Tenancy by the entirety and what happens when the marriage or a subset of the marriages dissolves.

The complexities are huge.  Not, IMO, unresolvably so, but it's a knotty, knotty question.  Marriage is threaded through an approximate assload of other bits of law -- which is why same-sex marriage rights are so important -- and that means that anything that demands examining the structure will be a pain in the tail to actually do.

That's why I really don't think that polygamy is likely to become legal any time soon.  The complexities are immense, and if they're NOT addressed it will be a nightmare for everyone involved.

I can recognize and appreciate the desire for that kind of .. hrm.  acknowledgment?  set of rights?  Everything that goes along with marriage.  But I can't even imagine some of the fiddly bits.

And I think that it's going to need to come FROM the community with a set of pre-done rules and policies, or it'll end up screwing people even more!
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« Reply #34: May 01, 2007, 01:55:13 pm »

I can recognize and appreciate the desire for that kind of .. hrm.  acknowledgment?  set of rights?  Everything that goes along with marriage.  But I can't even imagine some of the fiddly bits.

I used to work for a lawyer who did a lot of estate planning work; I have a good sense in my head of vaguely what I'd need to implement to get some of the basic stuff partially covered.  And I keep track of stuff like the Alternatives to Marriage Project.

Working out how to protect a second relationship as a marriage hasn't been an issue yet, but given my proclivities, it has always seemed wise to collect resources.  And it's looking more and more likely that that cogitation will turn up useful ....
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« Reply #35: May 01, 2007, 08:49:57 pm »

I used to work for a lawyer who did a lot of estate planning work; I have a good sense in my head of vaguely what I'd need to implement to get some of the basic stuff partially covered.  And I keep track of stuff like the Alternatives to Marriage Project.

Working out how to protect a second relationship as a marriage hasn't been an issue yet, but given my proclivities, it has always seemed wise to collect resources.  And it's looking more and more likely that that cogitation will turn up useful ....
Links?

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« Reply #36: May 01, 2007, 11:29:04 pm »

Links?

The Alternatives to Marriage Project is at http://www.unmarried.org/ .

There's also a book called Unmarried to Each Other that I intend to pick up at some point; should probably snag it reasonably soon, actually.  It's geared mostly to same-sex couples, IIRC, but many of the issues are universal for unmarried partnerships.
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« Reply #37: May 04, 2007, 01:41:02 am »

The Alternatives to Marriage Project is at http://www.unmarried.org/ .

There's also a book called Unmarried to Each Other that I intend to pick up at some point; should probably snag it reasonably soon, actually.  It's geared mostly to same-sex couples, IIRC, but many of the issues are universal for unmarried partnerships.
Thank you - the AtMP site looks like a very useful resource.  Not as much for me as it might be, since it's US-focused, but in just a very quick glance at the bookstore section I saw several things that caught my interest; it looks like it'll be well worthwhile for reading suggestions alone.  (No time right now to really explore the site.)

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« Reply #38: May 14, 2007, 11:30:07 am »

Prehaps another reason why things like this are rarely explained is that many of the explanations don't stand up well to even mildly thoughtful examination once offered.  For example, the anti-gay marriage people who claim that allowing same-sex marriages will somehow devalue or even destroy heterosexual marriage. I've never been able to figure out why these people think that John and Bob (or Jane and Brenda) getting married would have any effect on my marriage to Lyric?

Don't worry, Randall.  The Onion explains it allWink

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« Reply #39: May 14, 2007, 05:21:19 pm »

 Tongue
Don't worry, Randall.  The Onion explains it allWink

Brina

OK, but I don't want some random generated pairing, I call dibs.  Shadow ans I've talked aobut this before. so we need to get our names in early for when our states do this.  I guess we'll get married in whichever state does this first.  And our soon-to-be-exes can get married and we can move next door.    Shadow, do you want four or one?  Then the men can have the group of kids you don't want to actually live in the same house as, but since they'll be next door it'll work. You think Illinois will let us choose, or insist on doing the random thing?     Tongue


Although I liked it when they had the two political opponents getting married. Festa and Finneran.

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« Reply #40: May 14, 2007, 05:59:13 pm »

Although I liked it when they had the two political opponents getting married. Festa and Finneran.

Bush II could marry Kerry. Or better yet, Bill Clinton -- I'd be willing to pay good money to see that.
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« Reply #41: May 17, 2007, 05:06:32 pm »

- so, in short, homophobic men believe they are so attractive that gay men will inevitably attempt to rape them, given half the chance.  Shocked

And that's why they have more trouble with gay men than lesbians ...

Another version of this holds that homophobic men know how they act toward/think about/treat women; they assume gay men would act toward/think about/treat men the same way; and the homophobic men don't want to be targets of such poor/rude behavior.

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« Reply #42: May 18, 2007, 10:06:51 pm »

Another version of this holds that homophobic men know how they act toward/think about/treat women; they assume gay men would act toward/think about/treat men the same way; and the homophobic men don't want to be targets of such poor/rude behavior.

Ashlan

Very good point.
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« Reply #43: May 19, 2007, 05:38:35 am »

Another version of this holds that homophobic men know how they act toward/think about/treat women; they assume gay men would act toward/think about/treat men the same way; and the homophobic men don't want to be targets of such poor/rude behavior.

Ashlan

Which would also explain how those same homophobic men tend to be afraid of looking "girly". Looking like a woman --> getting treated like a woman --> getting treated badly.
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« Reply #44: May 19, 2007, 02:23:48 pm »

Quote from: Ashlan
Another version of this holds that homophobic men know how they act toward/think about/treat women; they assume gay men would act toward/think about/treat men the same way; and the homophobic men don't want to be targets of such poor/rude behavior.

Ashlan

Which would also explain how those same homophobic men tend to be afraid of looking "girly". Looking like a woman --> getting treated like a woman --> getting treated badly.

Wow, never thought of either one before. Suddenly.......well, a lot of things make a bit more sense in a way.
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