The Cauldron: A Pagan Forum (Archive Board)
October 22, 2020, 07:55:26 am *
Welcome, Guest. Please login or register.

Login with username, password and session length
News: This is our Read Only Archive Board (closed to posting July 2011). Join our new vBulletin board!
 
  Portal   Forum   Help Rules Search Chat (Mux) Articles Login Register   *

Welcome, Guest. Please login or register.
October 22, 2020, 07:55:26 am

Login with username, password and session length
Donate!
The Cauldron's server is expensive and requires monthly payments. Please become a Bronze, Silver or Gold Donor if you can. Donations are needed every month. Without member support, we can't afford the server.
TC Staff
Important Information about this Archive Board
This message board is The Cauldron: A Pagan Forum's SMF Archive Board. It is closed to new memberships and to posting, but there are over 250,000 messages here that you can still search and read -- many full of interesting and useful information. (This board was open from February 2007 through June 2011).

Our new vBulletin discussion board is located at http://www.ecauldron.com/forum/ -- if you would like to participate in discussions like those you see here, please visit our new vBulletin message board, register an account and join in our discussions. We hope you will find the information in this message archive useful and will consider joining us on our new board.
Pages: 1 [2] 3 4 ... 7   Go Down
  Add bookmark  |  Print  
Author Topic: What if we're wrong?  (Read 30637 times)
Odjn
Master Member
****
Last Login:March 09, 2011, 09:12:20 am
United States United States

Religion: Supreme Skeptic
Posts: 323


A dragon has come...

Blog entries (0)



Ignore
« Reply #15: November 01, 2008, 11:16:01 am »

I'm not sure you understood my question -

Presumably, there's a truth underneath it all, yes?  Of SOME sort - might be something we'd never guess, but there's SOMETHING.  reality doesn't just change on a whim.  (or I want lots of money and a publishing contract RIGHT NOW.  so there).  So - what if that underlying reality is something completely different than you think it is, and you discover that?  What do you do?

I am fairly sure I understood..you ARE referring to religious beliefs, right?

This is why I said..by whose standards are we being held to that would make one person right and the other wrong?

But I think religion is merely humanitys way of trying to figure all this stuff out but sometimes symbology is taken literally however if I find my views are wrong then I simply discard what no longer fits and change my thinking. I have done it before as of recently and it will happen again.

What would change? Probably the way I look at certian things. It's kind of hard to really say for sure.
Logged

Welcome, Guest!
You will need to register and/or login to participate in our discussions.

Read our Rules and Policies and the Quoting Guidelines.

Help Fund Our Server? Donate to Lyricfox's Cancer Fund?

EverFool
Board Staff
Staff
High Adept Member
***
Last Login:September 16, 2011, 12:40:01 pm
United Kingdom United Kingdom

Religion: atheist
Posts: 2960


Blog entries (0)


« Reply #16: November 01, 2008, 11:19:57 am »

I am fairly sure I understood..you ARE referring to religious beliefs, right?

This is why I said..by whose standards are we being held to that would make one person right and the other wrong?

Like, the universes?  In terms of *actually* being *wrong* about something fundamental.  This is on the assumption that somehow, something is undoubtedly proven, showing that all, or part of what you believe is utterly wrong.

For a soft polytheist, it might be the discovery that gods are real, and seperate, and not part of a greater whole.  For a hard polytheist it might be finding out that all gods are one.  For both of them it could be finding out that there are no gods, no divine force, etc.

What if you were wrong, on that kind of scale?
Logged

If anal prolapse teaches us anything, it's that it is what is inside that counts.
Odjn
Master Member
****
Last Login:March 09, 2011, 09:12:20 am
United States United States

Religion: Supreme Skeptic
Posts: 323


A dragon has come...

Blog entries (0)



Ignore
« Reply #17: November 01, 2008, 11:44:05 am »

Like, the universes?  In terms of *actually* being *wrong* about something fundamental.  This is on the assumption that somehow, something is undoubtedly proven, showing that all, or part of what you believe is utterly wrong.

For a soft polytheist, it might be the discovery that gods are real, and seperate, and not part of a greater whole.  For a hard polytheist it might be finding out that all gods are one.  For both of them it could be finding out that there are no gods, no divine force, etc.

What if you were wrong, on that kind of scale?

Since the universe (I suppose I should be explicit and say "I think") is not personified, humanized or anthropomorphised, I do not see how it matters what or how we think things are.

I can not say for sure what is or is not nor can anyone else. Like I said, if I WAS wrong then I simply change that which really IS wrong..or more specifically, I'd only change that which creates strife in my personal life.

In the end, would it matter if one thinks there is a flying spaghetti monster and the other sees the universe as a scientifically operated machine?

If I am wrong then I am wrong and then I go on wth life.

Interesting question though..I am not sure many people stop to ponder that.
Logged

Koimichra
Cauldron Council
Senior Staff
Adept Member
****
Last Login:May 10, 2011, 05:22:53 pm
United States United States

Religion: Catholic
Posts: 825


Blog entries (0)


« Reply #18: November 01, 2008, 12:43:05 pm »

I do not see how it matters what or how we think things are.

Please do not become an engineer. Merely because the universe is not personal/intelligent/anthropomorphized/whatever does not mean that you get to decide whatever you want to decide about, say, gravity. I do not want to drive across any bridges that you have built, as according to you it does not matter "what or how we think things are."
Logged
Odjn
Master Member
****
Last Login:March 09, 2011, 09:12:20 am
United States United States

Religion: Supreme Skeptic
Posts: 323


A dragon has come...

Blog entries (0)



Ignore
« Reply #19: November 01, 2008, 01:01:06 pm »

Please do not become an engineer. Merely because the universe is not personal/intelligent/anthropomorphized/whatever does not mean that you get to decide whatever you want to decide about, say, gravity. I do not want to drive across any bridges that you have built, as according to you it does not matter "what or how we think things are."

What does gravity and engineering projects have to do with religious views? Why are you lumping that with views on the physical world?
I do not understand your point.
Logged

ertha
Senior Apprentice
**
Last Login:July 27, 2009, 06:33:04 pm
Canada Canada

Religion: kitchen witch with atheistic tendencies
Posts: 58


Blog entries (0)



Ignore
« Reply #20: November 01, 2008, 01:49:01 pm »

So, next?  What if you're wrong?
Ever since I heard the phrase "the only constant is change" it's been part of my belief system. As I get new bits of information about science, religious practices, or worldviews, my understanding alters with them. If I were faced with the idea that my beliefs were unfounded, I would have to break them down and start from scratch, which I've done before. From all I've seen, the inability to adapt -- on the physical, emotional or spiritual level -- is a deathknell for living beings.
Logged
Kasmira
Adept Member
*****
Last Login:July 29, 2017, 12:05:31 pm
United States United States

Religion: Buddhist and Daoist inspired something
TCN ID: Kasmira
Posts: 1582


Blog entries (0)



Ignore
« Reply #21: November 01, 2008, 02:59:36 pm »

What if you're wrong?  What would change?  What wouldn't change?  Can you accept the doubt, or is doubt the enemy?

I find it hard to imagine how my belief system as it stands could be proven 'wrong'. It's a way of interpreting experience based on previous experience, it makes no claim to be anything else. Someone could prove to me that there are in fact distinct and conscious higher entities, but that would pretty much just provoke a "well that's nice" with a quick wave in said deity's direction. If someone were to prove to me that divine energy does not permeate the universe it wouldn't really matter. My relationship to that energy is entirely based upon experience and by proving that the energy is not there they haven't taken away my experience of it. Describing it as divine energy and calling it the Dao doesn't have any effect upon the experience of it which is really just the appreciation of beauty. I guess my spirituality is kind of funky because it is could probably best be described as a spiritual agnosticism which accepts the possibility for anything that has not been proven false, but doesn't require the existence of anything. I'm not sure I am explaining this very well...
Logged


Flying is learning how to throw yourself at the ground and miss - Douglas Adams
To live is the rarest thing in the world. Most people exist, that is all - Oscar Wilde
The road to nowhere: My little foray into the blogoshpere
HeartShadow - Cutethulhu
Assistant Board Coordinator
Senior Staff
Grand Adept Member
****
Last Login:April 15, 2013, 06:53:07 pm
United States United States

Religion: FlameKeeper
TCN ID: GenevieveWood
Posts: 8627


I am the Pirate Teddybear!

Blog entries (0)

WWW
« Reply #22: November 01, 2008, 03:11:26 pm »

What does gravity and engineering projects have to do with religious views? Why are you lumping that with views on the physical world?
I do not understand your point.

Because the point of the exercise is that these things are not mutable - that you've discovered The Truth and it's drastically different than what you thought it was.

Imagine if you woke up tomorrow and had absolute, incontrovertible proof that Jesus is the true son of God and the savior of man and that if you believe anything different you WILL fry in hell for all eternity.  Would you say it didn't matter then?  Or would it matter more than anything else ever could?

Religion MATTERS.  Just because we can't prove which one is right doesn't make it irrelevant - especially to those that believe most deeply.
Logged




FlameKeeping website: http://www.flamekeeping.org
RandallS
Co-Host
Administrator
Grand Adept Member
*****
Last Login:October 08, 2020, 10:47:08 am
United States United States

Religion: Hellenic Pagan
TCN ID: ADMIN
Posts: 17181


Blog entries (0)


« Reply #23: November 01, 2008, 05:51:49 pm »

What does gravity and engineering projects have to do with religious views?

They are examples of things that are provable/disprovable. The point of this exercise is what would you do if your religious views could be proven or disproved -- and you woke up one morning to discover they had indeed been disproved.
Logged

Randall
RetroRoleplaying [Blog - Forum] -- Out Of Print & Out Of Style Tabletop Roleplaying Games
Software Gadgets Blog -- Interesting Software, Mostly Free
Cheap Web Hosting -- Find an Affordable Web Host
Artur
Senior Apprentice
**
Last Login:June 17, 2011, 05:23:05 pm
United States United States

Religion: None. Undefined, Skeptical Theist.
Posts: 85

Blog entries (0)



Ignore
« Reply #24: November 01, 2008, 06:05:13 pm »

What if you're wrong?  What would change?  What wouldn't change?  Can you accept the doubt, or is doubt the enemy

Not much would change, I think.  What I believe now is based on the facts and experience I have, and my understanding of them.  I have difficulty with this type of mental exercise, since experience teaches that incontrovertable evidence for another viewpoint is simply not forthcoming.  It's all long-winded persuasion when you're talking about conversion, not (usually) the proferring of proof.

I not only can accept doubt, I embrace it as a true friend.  Doubt is the clear voice of direction when the fog of faith threatens to swallow the mind.
Logged
Aster Breo
SIG Coordinator
Staff
Grand Adept Member
***
Last Login:January 29, 2013, 09:32:22 pm
United States United States

Religion: Feral Brighideach
TCN ID: Aster Breo
Posts: 5260


Avatar byJuni & Dania

Blog entries (0)


« Reply #25: November 01, 2008, 08:02:35 pm »

Imagine if you woke up tomorrow and had absolute, incontrovertible proof that Jesus is the true son of God and the savior of man and that if you believe anything different you WILL fry in hell for all eternity.  Would you say it didn't matter then?  Or would it matter more than anything else ever could?

It would matter, and it would matter tremendously.

If that happened, the first thing I would have to wrestle with is whether proof that Jesus is the true son of God and the savior of man actually disproofs the existence of other gods.  IOW, now that I know that Jesus and the Christian God are not only real, but are the REAL THING, what does that mean for Brighid and the other deities?

If I have proof about Jesus, I don't think I would have that much trouble *believing* in him.  After all, I believe in Brighid (for want of a better word) because I have experienced what I think is proof of Her existence.   

So can I satisfy the requirements to believe in Jesus and avoid frying in hell, and still also believe in (and worship) Brighid?  Or does the new proof of Jesus negate either belief in or worship of any other deities?
Logged

"The single biggest problem with communication is the illusion that it has taken place."  ~ George Bernard Shaw
Marilyn (ABSENTMINDED)
Assistant Board Coordinator
Senior Staff
High Adept Member
****
Last Login:February 06, 2013, 08:12:28 pm
Canada Canada

Religion: free-flowing animist, Dudeist Priest
TCN ID: Absentminded
Posts: 2725


Blog entries (11)


« Reply #26: November 01, 2008, 08:59:00 pm »

In the end, would it matter if one thinks there is a flying spaghetti monster and the other sees the universe as a scientifically operated machine?

It would if it were in fact the flying spaghetti monster itself who 'thinks there is a flying spaghetti monster' and comes to tell you so and proves it incontrovertibly.

At that point, having absolute proof that your former beliefs were wrong, what would you do?  Would what you did be affected by any perks or punishments involved in accepting said monster?  (are there any perks or punishments?  Help me out, Pastafarians!)

Absent
Logged

"There's nothing wrong with you that reincarnation won't cure."
- Jack E. Leonard

Blessed are the cracked, for it is they who let in the light.

Ring the bells that still can ring
Forget your perfect offering
There is a crack, a crack in everything
That's how the light gets in

L Cohen
Cent
Master Member
****
Last Login:May 01, 2011, 05:10:44 pm
Canada Canada

Religion: Of the Earth
Posts: 367


Blog entries (0)



Ignore
« Reply #27: November 01, 2008, 09:15:34 pm »

It's one of those questions that always gets asked by people trying to convert - what if you're wrong.

This isn't an attempt to convert, just a thought-game.  Take a good long look at your religious beliefs - and ask.

What if you're wrong?  What would change?  What wouldn't change?  Can you accept the doubt, or is doubt the enemy?

**

Personally, nothing would really change.  I'd probably change the tone of my essays to a more atheistic standpoint - OTOH, mine pretty much come across that way anyway.  I'd still live my life much the same way - I'd be a little bugged by Apollo giving me tasks, but even that I'd do what I used to do - chalk it up to some other part of my psyche and go with it.  (what astonishes me is that He put up with that ...)

So, next?  What if you're wrong?

Funny how when I read this... it was like a rewind back in time flooded in.
In my forehead it began to play like a mini movie as I watched me asking the very question to me father. I was 15 and struggling with religious beliefs often hearing my Anglican mother concerned for my Agnostic father's soul.

*how odd it is to watch yourself have a conversation with someone*

I see myself with my feathered bangs and bright blue knit top with cap sleeves helping my father outside. I see myself turn serious and gathering myself *feeling as I did back then floods in*. Anxious.

"Dad.... what do think happens when you die?" me

"Nothing, when your dead your dead." dad

"Are you not worried about your soul?" me

"No, there would be just blackness, nothingness." dad

"But... what if your wrong?" me

My dad stopped working and stood up, his belly began to move up and down as his belly laugh began.
His ice blue eyes looked down at me with a glint of amusement as he chuckled out grinning ....

"Well I guess I'll find out won't I." dad

His belly laugh made me grin and giggle as we went back to work.

Odd as it may sound, my father set a foundation that day. Hard to put into words, but it's there.
Logged

Energy Follows Attention
Armagh444
Journeyman
***
Last Login:July 09, 2010, 07:16:15 pm
United States United States

Religion: Celtic Pagan Revivalist
Posts: 189


Blog entries (0)

WWW

Ignore
« Reply #28: November 01, 2008, 09:17:22 pm »

Presumably, there's a truth underneath it all, yes?  Of SOME sort - might be something we'd never guess, but there's SOMETHING.  reality doesn't just change on a whim.  (or I want lots of money and a publishing contract RIGHT NOW.  so there).  So - what if that underlying reality is something completely different than you think it is, and you discover that?  What do you do?

I've always worked on the assumption that if does turn out I am wrong, I won't likely find out about it until after I die, at which point it's likely to be pretty academic an issue.

That being said, lets presume for a moment that I am wrong and that I find out while I am still alive . . .

I like to think that I would be able to respond by adjusting and adapting, as I have done in other realms upon learning that I was wrong about something.

Of course, there really is no way of knowing for sure how I would actually respond if faced with that situation.  But I would like to think that my intellectual and emotional flexibility would be sufficient to carry me through.
Logged

Three things from which never to be moved: one's Oaths, one's Gods, and the Truth. The three highest causes of the true human are: Truth, Honor, and Duty. Three candles that illuminate every darkness: Truth, Nature, and Knowledge.
Armagh444
Journeyman
***
Last Login:July 09, 2010, 07:16:15 pm
United States United States

Religion: Celtic Pagan Revivalist
Posts: 189


Blog entries (0)

WWW

Ignore
« Reply #29: November 01, 2008, 09:17:45 pm »

I've always felt faith needs to feel doubt to be anything other than blind belief.  Faith is in spite of doubt, not running screaming from doubt.  y'know?

Absolutely.
Logged

Three things from which never to be moved: one's Oaths, one's Gods, and the Truth. The three highest causes of the true human are: Truth, Honor, and Duty. Three candles that illuminate every darkness: Truth, Nature, and Knowledge.

Donor Ad: Become a Silver or Gold Donor to get your ad here.

Tags:
Pages: 1 [2] 3 4 ... 7   Go Up
  Add bookmark  |  Print  
 
Jump to:  
  Portal   Forum   Help Rules Search Chat (Mux) Articles Login Register   *

* Share this topic...
In a forum
(BBCode)
In a site/blog
(HTML)


Related Topics
Subject Started by Replies Views Last post
Revenge: Right or Wrong? « 1 2 ... 5 6 »
Paganism For Beginners
whambamcam 78 23773 Last post April 23, 2011, 12:04:54 am
by rantynaru
Wrong thing to say ....
Humor and Quizzes
Phoenix 0 1099 Last post March 01, 2008, 04:54:38 pm
by Phoenix
Totally wrong!
Divination SIG
Sperran 10 2948 Last post December 17, 2008, 11:32:11 pm
by SunflowerP
What went wrong? « 1 2 »
Magic and the Occult for Beginners
omera 19 4977 Last post August 30, 2009, 08:13:43 pm
by omera
You're WRONG! « 1 2 3 »
Pagan Religions
HeartShadow - Cutethulhu 32 10941 Last post January 31, 2010, 12:38:20 am
by manwitch
EU Cookie Notice: This site uses cookies. By using this site you consent to their use.


Powered by MySQL Powered by PHP Powered by SMF 1.1.21 | SMF © 2006-2008, Simple Machines
TinyPortal v0.9.8 © Bloc
Valid XHTML 1.0! Valid CSS!
Page created in 0.064 seconds with 51 queries.