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Author Topic: What if we're wrong?  (Read 29981 times)
BGMarc
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« Reply #75: December 29, 2008, 05:56:35 pm »

In my opinion, your spiritual beliefs should come from you heart, not your mind.  In the long term, you can't go wrong if you listen to your heart

How do you tell your 'heart' from your reason?
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« Reply #76: December 30, 2008, 07:38:25 pm »

What if you're wrong?

well if I am wrong I will enjoy myself in hell. If anything I will not care, because the only way to find out is when I am dead and gone.

If someone could prove QED I wouldn't want to know. Besides who wants to see God disappear in a poof of logic?

(for anyone unfamiliar with the last line it's from Hitchhikers Guide to the Galaxy) Tongue
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« Reply #77: January 06, 2009, 03:09:34 pm »

well if I am wrong I will enjoy myself in hell. If anything I will not care, because the only way to find out is when I am dead and gone.

If someone could prove QED I wouldn't want to know. Besides who wants to see God disappear in a poof of logic?

(for anyone unfamiliar with the last line it's from Hitchhikers Guide to the Galaxy) Tongue

Gotta love those babble fish.

(Please bare with me on this, I mean no disrespect)

I myself have no problems with the "if I'm wrong" issue for a couple reasons.  For one you have to think about the many religions out there.  Most peoples' religions depend on geographic location.  If the religion native to an area is correct do you think that means everyone on the other land masses of this planet are damned because they weren't born there?  Because of this I really don't feel there is any one religion.  Unfortunately I have just defied several religions for their statements of being the one true religion.

For myself anyways, I feel consciousness can not be destroyed.  So from that stand point I feel I couldn't be wrong about an afterlife in some form.  The fine matter or energy realm/universe/world makes sense to me for this reason.  The concept of suffering or being punished for the wrong path or choices in life, I reconnect with the geographic principal.  I doubt one religion's followers suffer for their faults in life while another reincarnates or rejoins the universal conscious or other beyond embodiments.

I feel because of these principals that many religions have good and bad ideas.  Some may have a better understanding of the afterlife than others.  I don't really think any religion has it right that we will be punished for something we have no control over, birth place.  I myself am pretty sure that I have at least some things wrong about the afterlife, mundane to monumental.  As far as I'm concerned, I'm just excited to learn the truth.

Anyways, I just thought I'd bounce a couple ideas around.  As far as who is right and who is wrong, I don't know, but for the lack of anything better to say beyond that, good luck.  Wink
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« Reply #78: January 06, 2009, 06:11:06 pm »

Gotta love those babble fish.

(Please bare with me on this, I mean no disrespect)

I myself have no problems with the "if I'm wrong" issue for a couple reasons.  For one you have to think about the many religions out there.  Most peoples' religions depend on geographic location.  If the religion native to an area is correct do you think that means everyone on the other land masses of this planet are damned because they weren't born there?  Because of this I really don't feel there is any one religion.  Unfortunately I have just defied several religions for their statements of being the one true religion.

But this is the 'what if we're WRONG' thread.  It's less about how likely you think that is, and more about how that would change your life if you could somehow have it proven to you that you were indeed wrong?  What if, for example, X religion is correct, never mind which land mass you were born on?


Quote
For myself anyways, I feel consciousness can not be destroyed.  So from that stand point I feel I couldn't be wrong about an afterlife in some form. 

...So....what if you were wrong?  What if consciousness is just a function of brain activity?  You have an underlying assumption here, and this thread is all about what it would mean to you if those assumptions and beliefs turned out to be very clearly and obviously wrong.
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« Reply #79: January 06, 2009, 06:22:10 pm »

Quote from: EverFool
But this is the 'what if we're WRONG' thread.  It's less about how likely you think that is, and more about how that would change your life if you could somehow have it proven to you that you were indeed wrong?  What if, for example, X religion is correct, never mind which land mass you were born on?

Sorry I didn't answer the initial question.  If I didn't know I was wrong I suppose I would be at the fate of whatever the truth was, burning in hell for example.  However if it was proven to me in life that I was wrong undeniably I'm sure I would go through a good deal of denial.  I might even refuse to adhere to the truth even if I did understand it to be proof.  There are some principals I would rather burn in hell for defying than to follow however.  So I might still end up at the fate of whatever afterlife I would be destine for.  I guess lucky for me there is no proof so I'll continue down the path I see fit.  Cheesy

Quote
For myself anyways, I feel consciousness can not be destroyed.  So from that stand point I feel I couldn't be wrong about an afterlife in some form.
...So....what if you were wrong?  What if consciousness is just a function of brain activity?  You have an underlying assumption here, and this thread is all about what it would mean to you if those assumptions and beliefs turned out to be very clearly and obviously wrong.

I suppose I wouldn't care... in the event of there not being an afterlife.  For that matter I wouldn't be able to care because I wouldn't exist.  Wink



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« Reply #80: March 21, 2011, 05:51:41 pm »

I've always felt faith needs to feel doubt to be anything other than blind belief.  Faith is in spite of doubt, not running screaming from doubt.  y'know?

  If that is true, then "faith" could not possibly lead to anything ultimate.  A faith-doubt codependence means no ultimate heaven, or eternal afterlife, or any kind of transcendental attainment.
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« Reply #81: March 21, 2011, 06:09:18 pm »

  If that is true, then "faith" could not possibly lead to anything ultimate.  A faith-doubt codependence means no ultimate heaven, or eternal afterlife, or any kind of transcendental attainment.

Not all of us believe in those things - they certainly aren't part of my theology. In fact, there's no correlation in my worldview between my faith on this earthly plane and any system or reward or punishment when I die.
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« Reply #82: March 21, 2011, 06:45:40 pm »

Not all of us believe in those things - they certainly aren't part of my theology. In fact, there's no correlation in my worldview between my faith on this earthly plane and any system or reward or punishment when I die.

  Yes, obviously not everyone has such beliefs.  Believing in them isn't very helpful, it would only be helpful to attain them.  As far as I'm concerned, the essential flaw of religion is that very fact.
« Last Edit: March 21, 2011, 06:56:25 pm by son of dhamma, Reason: wouldn\'t/would correction » Logged

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« Reply #83: March 21, 2011, 08:28:33 pm »

  If that is true, then "faith" could not possibly lead to anything ultimate.  A faith-doubt codependence means no ultimate heaven, or eternal afterlife, or any kind of transcendental attainment.

That's actually not necessarily true.  Those things CAN exist even with a healthy sense of doubt.  They just can't be reached if the only way to get there is 100% doubtless faith.
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« Reply #84: March 21, 2011, 08:31:39 pm »

That's actually not necessarily true.  Those things CAN exist even with a healthy sense of doubt.  They just can't be reached if the only way to get there is 100% doubtless faith.

I was trying to think how to word this, this was so much better than the convolution of words swirling in my sentence-cauldron. LOL So, yeah: That.
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« Reply #85: March 21, 2011, 10:14:07 pm »

That's actually not necessarily true.  Those things CAN exist even with a healthy sense of doubt.  They just can't be reached if the only way to get there is 100% doubtless faith.
I was trying to think how to word this, this was so much better than the convolution of words swirling in my sentence-cauldron. LOL So, yeah: That.

 
Quote
I've always felt faith needs to feel doubt to be anything other than blind belief.
  I was indeed suggesting that doubt hinders the attainment of the ultimate.  Doubt is an impediment, a fetter of the ultimate attainment.  But my real point was that after a certain period of evolution, faith absolves doubt.
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« Reply #86: March 21, 2011, 10:16:48 pm »

That's actually not necessarily true.  Those things CAN exist even with a healthy sense of doubt.  They just can't be reached if the only way to get there is 100% doubtless faith.

  On the other hand, if you're going to argue that an ultimate state can exist in spite of doubt, then please explain your idea.
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« Reply #87: March 21, 2011, 11:25:49 pm »

  On the other hand, if you're going to argue that an ultimate state can exist in spite of doubt, then please explain your idea.

If an ultimate state is, in fact, reality... then it wouldn't necessarily matter if you doubted or not. Its existence isn't dependent on a person's belief in it. I can doubt that Mt Kilamanjaro exists, but my belief or skepticism doesn't in any way affect whether there is a mountain or what it's qualities are.

Even if there is a stipulation that I can't get to Mt Kilamanjaro if I doubt it exists, then it may still exist, I just can't get there. This may be because there is some kind of gatekeeper who turns me away after assessing how much skepticism I lived with, or because, either because of a quality of the mountain, or because of something in my consciousness, my afterlife-self can't perceive what my predeath-self didn't acknowledge.

From some perspectives, you have to become enlightened to achieve the ultimate state; but in others, if there's a quantum soup to which we all return, it won't matter if we believe in it or work toward it, it's just there, and it's the Reality to which we all will return regardless of what our Egos do in our physical bodies in material existence.

And I'm sure there are any number of other conceptions, an ultimate state that is brought into being by belief is one possibility.


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« Reply #88: March 21, 2011, 11:34:25 pm »

If an ultimate state is, in fact, reality... then it wouldn't necessarily matter if you doubted or not. Its existence isn't dependent on a person's belief in it. I can doubt that Mt Kilamanjaro exists, but my belief or skepticism doesn't in any way affect whether there is a mountain or what it's qualities are.

Even if there is a stipulation that I can't get to Mt Kilamanjaro if I doubt it exists, then it may still exist, I just can't get there. This may be because there is some kind of gatekeeper who turns me away after assessing how much skepticism I lived with, or because, either because of a quality of the mountain, or because of something in my consciousness, my afterlife-self can't perceive what my predeath-self didn't acknowledge.

From some perspectives, you have to become enlightened to achieve the ultimate state; but in others, if there's a quantum soup to which we all return, it won't matter if we believe in it or work toward it, it's just there, and it's the Reality to which we all will return regardless of what our Egos do in our physical bodies in material existence.

And I'm sure there are any number of other conceptions, an ultimate state that is brought into being by belief is one possibility.

  Yeah, Ellen said that faith needs doubt, and I said that the ultimate attainment would be impossible to reach through faith if that were true.
  I'm aware that there is an objective reality.  I was just talking about faith and doubt.  My implied argument to her was that faith does not need doubt, and that in order to reach the ultimate attainment one must destroy doubt at some point.
  Make sense?
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« Reply #89: March 21, 2011, 11:42:40 pm »

  Make sense?

Not really.
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