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Author Topic: The strangest (and scariest) thing yet...  (Read 17183 times)
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« Reply #15: November 03, 2008, 11:15:52 pm »

If that statement (from both of you) holds true, explain to me how Hanuman (a Hindu Deity) was at the foot of my bed when I was twelve year old boy when I woke up one night? Was it a hallucination? Was it this sleep paralysis? I never saw a picture of him in my life
 


Have you ever seen the show "Mind Control with Derren Brown"?  In one episode, he drives these advertising guys across town to have them make up an ad for a taxidermy service.  He gives them an hour to come up with their idea, then shows them what idea he himself had come up with.  The two ads were nearly identical.  Turns out Derren had placed signs and slogans all along the street the guys' cab had drove down on the way there.  They didn't consciously see the signs, but they still picked up on them subconsciously.  My point is that you may have seen a picture of Hanuman but not consciously realized it, or quickly forgot, until your subconcious recalled it later.

Now, while I think it's possible you did see a diety, there are other more likely explanations.

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« Reply #16: November 03, 2008, 11:24:43 pm »


Have you ever seen the show "Mind Control with Derren Brown"?  In one episode, he drives these advertising guys across town to have them make up an ad for a taxidermy service.  He gives them an hour to come up with their idea, then shows them what idea he himself had come up with.  The two ads were nearly identical.  Turns out Derren had placed signs and slogans all along the street the guys' cab had drove down on the way there.  They didn't consciously see the signs, but they still picked up on them subconsciously.  My point is that you may have seen a picture of Hanuman but not consciously realized it, or quickly forgot, until your subconcious recalled it later.

Now, while I think it's possible you did see a diety, there are other more likely explanations.



Such as what? To say there are other explanations for that are telling me that what I knew as a kid and what I know now are nothing but false.

I dream to much and have to many to come true not to know that it was real. I'm too logical and know to much to jump right in and go "OMFG! Betty-Su! I saw a Unicorn today!!!". I question things to many times over not listening to my instinct and yet as todays human society, there are people in this world who feel the need to make the mundane law.

The actual pressure on my chest, the actual "massage" of it was real. As real as my alarm going off and my dreams accepting it in. The same exact thing happen but with another character playing the part.

Why/How isn't it most likely that what happened was an enity of some form that had a key, found a door and took it's chance when our walls are thinned?  It's not like I'm (or many) of us are on here all the time going and telling these things. Yes, there are few who have that happen to them truthfully and there are few who make them up to be seen.

So for any of us on TC to not run down both possibilites equally is denying our selves the possibility of growing and understanding that there is more then the mundane, and that the mystical has it's mundane natures as well.
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« Reply #17: November 03, 2008, 11:46:42 pm »

Thank you, and no, no. None of it came off wrong to me at all. I had to ask that question to counter the mundane'ness' of it. I'm just having to keep it balanced and to find a truth to this whether it falls one way or splits center. How can we justify this hypothing vs. mystical? We can't. We as humans try to and come up with things like this.

I think this is the perfect place to be looking at both sides for possibilities.  TC has a nice balance for such discussions. 

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Yes, sure. I believe that is possible, as we as humans brains can do things (but, with mundane acceptance, limit) with them. Yet, this coincides with Halloween/DotD where the viel between the Earth/Living is thinned with the deceased realm. I've not had any other time like this happen, yet it happens within a 24hr time window.

One could also suggest that having Halloween and the thinning veil on your mind could have contributed to what you experienced.    Wink  In all seriousness though, I do believe that some sort of barrier probably comes down while we're in altered states of consciousness.  It's just about figuring out when it may be a legit spiritual experience vs. too many nachos before bed.

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« Reply #18: November 04, 2008, 03:15:44 am »

Hypnopompic hallucinations occur during the period when we are waking up (as opposed to hypnagogic hallucinations, which happen when we fall asleep) and frequently occur during sleep paralysis.
Maybe the scientific explanation is just one side of the coin? I wonder if what the brain does when you fall asleep or wake up just makes your senses a bit more open to whatever energy is present in the room you sleep in.

I know someone who has experienced sleep paralysis and claims to have seen the devil (she's evangelical). I don't think she has seen the devil, but I'm sure there's a lot of energetical shit flying around in her flat.

I'd watch my sleep pattern and what I eat and do before going to bed, so physical problems are unlikely to appear. But I'd also look at the energies I keep in my sleeping room.
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« Reply #19: November 04, 2008, 04:10:05 am »



But, please answer me this then. If that statement (from both of you) holds true, explain to me how Hanuman (a Hindu Deity) was at the foot of my bed when I was twelve year old boy when I woke up one night? Was it a hallucination? Was it this sleep paralysis? I never saw a picture of him in my life, yet six years later I discover an exact image of him from Hindu paintings and artwork.

Explain. Please.
 

I have no idea whether Hanuman was a hallucination, a case of sleep paralysis, a day dream, or whatever.  I don't care much either.  I've been talking about your recent experience.  Just because I think that was sleep paralysis, does not mean that I think everything in your bedroom has been sleep paralysis.  If you genuinely want my opinion, I think it was probably a day dream/ dream.  Possibly a hallucination. Those things happen to us all, pretty much.

As for the 'identical' appearance?

Here's the options as I see them:

1) a Hindu god went into the room of a 12 year old.
2) Someone else was in your room, and you don't remember it quite right.  I don't find this tooo likely, but I'm aiming for completeness.
3) Sleep paralysis - but I don't find this likely.  Was it an unpleasant experience for you?
4) Day dream or dream.  It happened a long time ago, and you might just remember it as having happened while awake.
5) Hallucination.  Can easily happen as one gets tired.

I should also note that memory is *notoriously* unreliable.  There's scads of research on the subject, and it's why lots of witnesses can see the same thing without agreeing what they saw, and also why dodgy questioning can alter a person's memory of an event.  So I find it quite easy to believe you saw a figure that made a vague impression, and six years later saw something meaningful to you, that looked kinda similar.  You could quite easily then remember it as having been identical.

I'm sure you won't like my response, but what do you want me to say?  The H's love you?
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« Reply #20: November 04, 2008, 04:19:50 am »

Maybe the scientific explanation is just one side of the coin?

*nods*
I don't wanna go back to superstitious times where people with epilepsy where thought to be posessed by a demon.
But somethings that I tossed around my mind too where already mentioned.

Like Absent said: is the commeness = mundaness
Or: just because it has effects on the physical does that mean the causes have to be physical/mundane

Hope I can explain what I mean.

F.ex. some mental illnesses (talking as layperson here, so I'm staying general.)
There are symptoms and there is treatment and often that is fine and helpful.
But is there really a way to tell if it is 'just' an illness? Or if some borders have broken down concerning the perception?

I - a lot of us around here I bet - are literally working on breaking down such bordes, to better perceive things that officially in the everyday, normal, mundane world do not exist.

Where is the difference between vision and hallucination?
Is somebody crazy or just perceiving more things?

I think it is a thin line and a lot of incertitude. I don't believe anybody can really tell and asure what those things are.
As so often I don't think there is objectivness possible.

And even on a pure scientific level the human brain holds still enough mysteries.
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« Reply #21: November 04, 2008, 04:33:58 am »

Such as what? To say there are other explanations for that are telling me that what I knew as a kid and what I know now are nothing but false.

No-one likes to think they've been mistaken for a long period of time, but sadly that happens.  i would go so far as to say most, if not all, experience that at some point in their life.

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I dream to much and have to many to come true not to know that it was real. I'm too logical and know to much to jump right in and go "OMFG! Betty-Su! I saw a Unicorn today!!!".

That may be your self assessment, but I don't think it's as simple as that.  For one thing, you've been really quick to dismiss an explanation that you've admitted you don't know much about.  Your arguments against sleep paralysis seemed to initially be based on a misunderstanding of what sleep paralysis is, and later you're appealing to a balance between mundane and, well, special.  And I'll get to the problems with that later in the post.

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I question things to many times over not listening to my instinct and yet as todays human society, there are people in this world who feel the need to make the mundane law.

Aren't scientists so *mean*?  Going around, doing all that research to test the mechanisms of various parts of the world we live in, and the various things that occupy it, and then presenting repeatedly tested models and hypothesis as if they were accurate?  And here's where I'll address this balancing thing.  Belief in the occult, gods, etc, is based on an interpretation of events, which are generally highly ambiguous, especially the more you learn about science.  Particularly the way memory, perception, etc works.  Science is based on rigorous testing, and droppin ideas that don't match the data.  Faith is largely about what 'makes sense' to a person, based on their experience and view of the world, and it generally isn't open to testing.  Actually looking and what's going on, and what available data suggests is not equivalent to deciding what 'feels right'.

From long and frustrating experience, I regularly see 'feels right' win out over mundane explanations.  Because being visited by a god is more interesting than just being tired, or eating the wrong thing before bed etc.  I freely admit it - the scientific explanation isn't always that exciting.  I can see *why* people would rather believe in the supernatural.  But I do find it frustrating, because we live in a time when scientific knowledge and education is widely available, and people still ignore it.  That's why I'm so cantankerous on here at times, and why I keep airing my views.  Because even if I don't convince anyone, I feel it's my duty to at least try.  It's not about trying to make anything a 'law' - I'd just like people to seriously look at the scientific explanations.

A final side issue about balance: it really only works if both the science and the psychic stuff are real.  Given that there's no good evidence of anything like gods, magic, etc,itlooksto me like you're balancing the real stuff with stuff that doesn't exist.  That doesn't look like a balance to me.

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The actual pressure on my chest, the actual "massage" of it was real.

Because this is a real skeptical look at what was going on. Smiley  I don't doubt that the experience was real to you.  But the pressure is a *common factor* in sleep paralysis.

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As real as my alarm going off and my dreams accepting it in. The same exact thing happen but with another character playing the part.

Can you clarify on what you mean about the character bit?

Quote
Why/How isn't it most likely that what happened was an enity of some form that had a key, found a door and took it's chance when our walls are thinned?

And here is the implicit assumption that there are 'walls' that are 'thinned.'  Why should Halloween be so special?  because people dress up?  As to why that isn't the most likely possibility?  Because sleep paralysis has been studied, and there's a pretty good grasp of what is generally involved.  And as much as you don't like to hear it, your description fits a lot of the common marks.

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  It's not like I'm (or many) of us are on here all the time going and telling these things. Yes, there are few who have that happen to them truthfully and there are few who make them up to be seen.

perhaps I'm too charitable, but I generally don't assume anyone is lying.

Quote
So for any of us on TC to not run down both possibilites equally is denying our selves the possibility of growing and understanding that there is more then the mundane, and that the mystical has it's mundane natures as well.

And regularly denying mundane explanations denies you the opportunity to expand your knowledge of science.  But people seem to be generally fine with that.


I realise I've been a bit mean in this response, and I've certainly been a bit zealous in making my point.  As a compromise, if you ask me to, I'll make a response to you that offers a different point of view.  It'll be a pack of lies from my perspective, but at least it won't have any science in it.  So I suppose that would be some balance.
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« Reply #22: November 04, 2008, 05:01:30 am »

To properly get this started, we'll say I was dreaming. In my dream, I had this man rubbing my chest from left to right. It was feeling very good, relaxing, etc. Now, some reason, I was awakening from this dream.

First thought was "damn, I'm awake" (it was a good rub) but then I realized I could not move. Ok, so I thought maybe I was still in "limbo". I was there long enough not to be in limbo and started to become concern. About this point, I felt my mouth drop open and something flow (Yes.) out of my chest and out my mouth. Right after that had happened, I found control of my body (instead of just my thoughts) and said "Go away!"

As soon as I did, I looked to my "upper" (was laying down here) corner and seen this angry old man yelling at me. Didn't hear anything he was saying, but I knew he was angry. So, I turned the other direction and said "Leave and never return unless I call your name." (Let's face it, I didn't know his name!)

Right....I fully expect to get shot down in flames here but:

1) Do you live in an apartment or a house?

2) Do you have any sick neighbours?

The way you tell it sounds like pschic vampirism...not for your blood but for your energy. Some really ill people can do this without even knowing it, especially if they are life-threateningly sick or getting old and frail. They project their spritual self out to suck up other people's life-force...the old man you saw may be just a reflection of the soul of the person involved, not his/her actual visage.
This phenomena has been documented over and over and i'm sure it can be explained away with science. However I once met someone who had been victim to this and I really do believe it happens. I had read about it briefly before but in order to help this victim I did a little more research and we found that in order to make it stop, essentially you have to stand up to it. Kinda like a bully, when you have the courage to resist the thing will stop drawing from you.
It sounds as if that is exactly what happened, you found control and willed it to stop.

What in all of Their Great Names do you suspect that was or had happened to me? I know I haven't done my salt around my openings (doorway, windows, etc) for about two months...but what in the names?!

If I was you I wouldn't be too worried about more visits as you have shown enough strength to rid yourself of this thing, but maybe the salting would be a good idea!
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« Reply #23: November 04, 2008, 07:29:07 am »

Right....I fully expect to get shot down in flames here but:

1) Do you live in an apartment or a house?

2) Do you have any sick neighbours?

The way you tell it sounds like pschic vampirism...not for your blood but for your energy. Some really ill people can do this without even knowing it, especially if they are life-threateningly sick or getting old and frail. They project their spritual self out to suck up other people's life-force...the old man you saw may be just a reflection of the soul of the person involved, not his/her actual visage.
This phenomena has been documented over and over and i'm sure it can be explained away with science. However I once met someone who had been victim to this and I really do believe it happens. I had read about it briefly before but in order to help this victim I did a little more research and we found that in order to make it stop, essentially you have to stand up to it. Kinda like a bully, when you have the courage to resist the thing will stop drawing from you.
It sounds as if that is exactly what happened, you found control and willed it to stop.

If I was you I wouldn't be too worried about more visits as you have shown enough strength to rid yourself of this thing, but maybe the salting would be a good idea!

I'm only responding to Sibylla at the moment because I just woke up thirty minutes ago and I can properly answer these questions.

Now I'm not attempting to lean "mystical" but I am going to say that this "classification" is more to what happened, since I know exactly what happened and what I felt.
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« Reply #24: November 04, 2008, 07:58:41 am »



Is the big question you're trying ask "Where do I go from here?" or is it "What caused this?".  It seems to me, from your posts, that you're really wanting to attach a magical, mystical explanation to this event, rather than a scientific one.  And I think that's perfectly fine.  We all want to explain things to ourselves, and sometimes we want to convince everyone else that the way we're explaining them is the ONLY way. Wink  It's just human nature.

I am one who has very vivid sleep experiences.  Once I felt like I was floating, and I couldn't get down.  I literally remember looking over and seeing myself higher up than just on the bed.  At the same time, I heard someone repeating my MIL's name over and over (she had just passed away).  Shortly thereafter, I woke up and went to the baby's crib to check on him, and I walked *through* something to get there.  Shortly after I started exploring paganism, I woke up, sat up in bed and very vividly saw a man in a robe (like a monk) throwing my Wicca books and my ritual tools all over the room.

I also dream things that come true, and so I put a lot of stock in what happens when I'm sleeping.  If it's something negative -like the random monk throwing my stuff- a lot of times I try to explain it with science, because I don't like to believe that there are negative spirits or energies in my house.  At the same time, I do all the magical stuff to get them out, though. Wink

So I guess my point is that, if you do believe this was some sort of spirit, then you probably already know what you need to do to deter it from coming back.  A good smudging is where I would start.  Be sure to specifically say that harmful spirits need to get.  I think it's entirely possible that you invited him in, though.  Maybe he wasn't yelling at you negatively...maybe there was something he needed to tell you.  I dunno.  If you're not scared of him, you could always invite him back and try to figure out what it is he wants.
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« Reply #25: November 04, 2008, 09:18:36 am »

I've not had any other time like this happen, yet it happens within a 24hr time window.

Well...  Yes.  Everything happens within some 24-hour time window.  This one happened to be in a 24-hour window that you attach some significance to, but the thing is, there are only so many 24-hour windows available.  It's not as though this is a one in a million chance.

It's not my intention to belittle your experience either.  If you're looking for an answer to the question of what it was, though, I do think it pays to consider mundane explanations that appear to match the experience you describe.  I don't see the value in clinging to a supernatural explantion when there is a perfectly good mundane one available.

That said...  Obviously the experience was very real to you, whether it was objectively "real" or not.  I don't think the reality-to-you necessarily requires that the mundane, objective explanation for the experience be disproven or discarded.  If it was subjectively real to you, then its impact on you is going to be the same whether the objective reality is that you had a supernatural experience, or whether the objective reality is that you had an episode of sleep paralysis.  I would cautiously suggest that your time and energy might be better spent answering the "where do I go from here" question that folksymama proposes than fighting what seems to be a rather obvious mundane answer to "what caused this".

Quote
Is this a case of hypo/paralysis? From my (little) understanding, no.

Maybe it would help the rest of us understand where you're coming from if you could elaborate on this.  What about the experience do you see as being different from the symptoms of sleep paralysis?
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« Reply #26: November 04, 2008, 09:27:55 am »

It seems to me, from your posts, that you're really wanting to attach a magical, mystical explanation to this event, rather than a scientific one.  And I think that's perfectly fine. 

I disagree.  I think it's fine to want to attach a mystical significance to what appears to have been a perfectly mundane event, if there is a significance there to be attached.  (And there may not be, and it's important to recognize that too.)  I don't think it's fine to attach a mystical, magical explanation, to say, "Oh, this is really a visitation from a spirit," when it matches all the symptoms of sleep paralysis. 

I think that science and knowledge are valuable tools for understanding ourselves and the world around us, and that to dump them when they don't match what we want to see is to willfully close ourselves off to that understanding.  I don't find that to be a good thing.
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« Reply #27: November 04, 2008, 10:04:55 am »

Ever heard the term hypnopompia?  Hypnopompic hallucinations occur during the period when we are waking up (as opposed to hypnagogic hallucinations, which happen when we fall asleep) and frequently occur during sleep paralysis. 

This explains some things to me. Thank you!
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« Reply #28: November 04, 2008, 10:20:16 am »

Ever heard the term hypnopompia?  Hypnopompic hallucinations occur during the period when we are waking up (as opposed to hypnagogic hallucinations, which happen when we fall asleep) and frequently occur during sleep paralysis.  This would explain your experience quite well. 

Just curious.
Are these just different names for the basically same phenomenon, or is a different mechanism behind those two?
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« Reply #29: November 04, 2008, 10:29:42 am »

I would cautiously suggest that your time and energy might be better spent answering the "where do I go from here" question that folksymama proposes than fighting what seems to be a rather obvious mundane answer to "what caused this".

Maybe it would help the rest of us understand where you're coming from if you could elaborate on this.  What about the experience do you see as being different from the symptoms of sleep paralysis?

Yes. This.

Which is why I suggested looking at other methods of getting further information - logically, if it is something other than sleep paralysis, you will have some kind of other resource for information (divination, meditation, other senses) that will also show up at other times. If you *don't* have any of that, then it's more likely that the experience was triggered by something physical, and that it may not have any particular mystical experience.

Of course, it's also possible that it will take some time for other info to come to light - I've certainly had that with dreams, where a pattern has taken multiple years to show up. (This'd be a possible explanation for the Hanuman experience: obviously, there's a longer pattern there, but it took years to be obvious.)

It's always seemed to me that logic suggests that looking for more info is the sensible thing to do - rather than panicking about a single event. If a hostile presence really is interested in me, it's not like they're going to stop with one visit, right? Ditto for a deity or a benevolent presence. I can sit and take in more information and look at all sorts of possible responses without going off the deep end and assuming the worst or even that all experiences of a particular kind are deeply mystical and not caused by something else.
Logged

Blog: Thoughts from a threshold: http://gleewood.org/threshold
Info for seekers: http://gleewood.org/seeking
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