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Author Topic: The strangest (and scariest) thing yet...  (Read 17184 times)
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« Reply #45: November 05, 2008, 10:16:20 am »

Apologies, you are correct. I had thought I had placed that I recognized I was in the limbo status. I simply stated limbo, not that I recognized what it was that I was going through.

Well, and "limbo" doesn't necessarily tell us "sleep paralysis" even if you'd said you're recognized it.

Quote
Yes, holes. But that's what is (and was requested) to be done with my initial question(s) at hand, was to find holes and attempt to find a reason. If it's wrong of me to do the same to these possible reasons, then please let me know.

No, it's not wrong.  I didn't mean to imply that, sorry.  Part of critical thinking--whether applying it to mundane explanations or to more supernatural ones--is examining a given premise to see where it doesn't seem to hold up, and poking at those holes to see if they're really holes or not.  That's a good thing.

However, if you're wanting to give other posters the impression that you're not just being dismissive of the suggestions they're offering, it's also good to poke at the bits that don't have holes in them.  To point out what fits, not just what doesn't.  When all you do is poke holes from the outset, it can easily come across as trying to find a way out of the explanation offered rather than trying to make sure it really does fit.  Whether that's something you're worried about or not is up to you, of course.  I only mentioned it because you seemed not to understand why some of us feel you're not paying enough attention to the mundane side of things, so I thought pointing out why you were coming across like that might help you see where we were coming from.

I'll repeat my earlier question, too:  Can you tell us what specifically makes you say that this was not sleep paralysis?  You've been poking at bits of that theory, but not really said why the definite statement that it isn't, IIRC.  Knowing the reason behind that statement might help those of us who lean toward the scientific explanation understand the situation and your apparent resistance to the idea that it might have been sleep paralysis better.
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« Reply #46: November 05, 2008, 10:20:16 am »

No, this wouldn't look like a balance to you now would it? I'm not quickly dismissing this sleep paralysis reasoning. I'm attempting to keep my experiences on par with the mundane reason you are presenting.  To match it level by level to maintain the balance and to figure out which one it is. Not by doing what you are doing and saying it must be this. You and others present the mundane while I am maintaining what I have experinced.

Fine, I'll bite.  What do you think is the balanced approach?  I prefer to go with what has a demonstrable effect.  Given that there's no solid evidence of the 'special', I'm having trouble seeing what is a meaningful and reasoned balance.  Science has a general approach for testing hypotheses.  There are also stores of knowledge which present a guide for replicating findings.  Many original findings go on to be duplicated.  What will be your approach that balances this?

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I didn't eat anything different. Didn't do anything different that day. Slept entirely well the day before, had an easy and fantastic day at Menards (my busy retail job with often angry people. No angry people that day or the day before and after!). My friends and co workers were also in a great mood as well. It was a fantastic weekend!

That doesn't rule out the possibility of other factors.  Sleep paralysis is not my field of speciality, so I don't know all of the factors.  I do understand that sleeping position is meant to be significant.

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Not a thing changed for me on this night. Please don't attempt to tell me that I'm not trying to keep a balance from mundane to 'special' when you are sitting far on the mundane edge and not meeting me half way with your knowledge.

How do you want me to meet you half way?  I'm presenting the information that is based on actual research, and appears to match real world phenomena.  If I see any evidence to support gods, etc, I will happily expand my opinion of what is real accordingly.  Until then, I have already offered to lie to you.  I'm not changing my beliefs of what is real because you don't like my position.  I confess that I could be wrong in my atheism, and that maybe you have been visited by a god.  I don't find that likely at present.  If you want me to change my position, you need to persuade me.  I don't expect you to suddenly say 'I see the light!  I abandon all belief in the supernatural!'  You wanted opinions, I gave mine.  You clearly aren't happy with it.

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Yes, I know this to be true. I have had the sleep paralysis before (Had you asked me that yet to see?) and recognized it right away (which I made statement of in my first post...).

I didn't ask, because I didn't care much.  I didn't anticipate my response being what you wanted, and I appear to have been vindicated in that respect.  People have different experiences in sleep paralysis - there are cultural variants.  Let's call that between-individual difference.  Perhaps you experienced within-individual difference.

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Instead of an alarm clock playing, it was a man with physical actions having an affect in my dream.

So thee was a physical man in the room with you while you slept?  Or was it that you had a dream featuring a man?  As I said, the *pressure* on the *chest* which you emphasised, is a key feature in sleep paralysis.

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Halloween should be so 'special' because you have two contents celebrating a day of the deceased less then 24 hours from each other that had no contact for millenias. Halloween should be so 'special' because it's a day to respect those before us. Costumes are to protect us from those we don't want and has become a fun thing to continue this tradition.

here there is more assumption: that costumes protect.  From what especally?  Just supernatural stuff I'm guessing?  I also have a tiger-deterrant in my home.  I'm not dealing with the times of the celebration, because I suspect there's a historical issue there, and I'm not well read in that area.

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Why am I playing this? Because this sleep paralysis could have happened any time of the year, but it happened here on that date.

Humans are a pattern-seeking species.  You've already decided that this was a Special Event, and that Halloween played a role.  I'm presenting clarifications of my argument here, but I'm rapidly failing to see the point in continuing in this thread.

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The setting in the 'special' side was perfect for such an event to happen. What easier access for something negative to attempt something at EverFool?

I have no idea, not being familiar with, for starters, the existence of any negative critters.  For all I know, if they did exist, it would be easier for them to do so during summer.  Why is there a veil, in your view?  How does this effect critters?  The fact that cultures have a day of the dead only demonstrates the existence of a day of the dead.

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I was perfectly fine the day before, the day of an the day after my event and still maintain it five days after. Sleep, lack of, food or the days events had no play in this.

Sigh. I've had a single experience of sleep paralysis.  It need not happen repeatedly over a period of time.

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I'm no where near fine with that. We live in a world where many wants what your claiming I am doing: trying to be 'special'. Special is actually trying and not staying on one side of the fence, throwing stones at those of us who attempt to walk it.

How mean of me.

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I try to maintain that balance of mundane and 'special' for not only my self, but to keep those around me to a grounded level. Floating high on either field doesn't do any of us good but look down at others.

What are you grounded *in*?  It doesn't look like skepticism to me.  I'm not the only one in this thread who has formed the opinion that you are particularly attached to finding a special explanation.  Again, I make an offer: if you ask me to, I'll make a completely non-scientific explanation for you.  *I* will see it as a lie, just as you would presumably see it as a lie if you gave a completely mundane explanation.  The only way you can have me change the position I state is to either convince me, or be content with me lying.  I will not alter my beliefs just because you think *my* approach is unbalanced and mean.
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« Reply #47: November 05, 2008, 11:09:30 am »

Quote from: folksymama on November 04, 2008, 11:53:11 am
The way my computer operates, I wouldn't be surprised if it is indeed powered by demons.


Actually... an old term in the computer industry, would be Glitch Witch.   *cackles*


Quote from: Neriandal Freit on Today at 10:24:51 am

snip... I have had the sleep paralysis before (Had you asked me that yet to see?) and recognized it right away (which I made statement of in my first post...).

Instead of an alarm clock playing, it was a man with physical actions having an affect in my dream.

snip...Halloween should be so 'special' because it's a day to respect those before us.

...We live in a world where many wants what your claiming I am doing: trying to be 'special'. Special is actually trying and not staying on one side of the fence, throwing stones at those of us who attempt to walk it. I try to maintain that balance of mundane and 'special' for not only my self, but to keep those around me to a grounded level. Floating high on either field doesn't do any of us good but look down at others.


I was gonna question, how would one knows the difference between Sleep paralysis and other happenings, if there has been no experience with at least a few. (happenings, ie OB, AP, dreamstates can all cause a ... sensation of, or seperation of mind, body or spirit. As well as things of the unexplained.)

Since you are familiar with what it is like to go through sleep paralysis one has to wonder what/how was your body trapped.

I myself in the past 5 years have woke unable to move but nothing was around me nor did I see or sense anything.
The first time it was just my limbs that layed there, the second it was a whole body paralysis. I could not even open my eyes, I felt trapped and panicy until I stopped fighting it and let myself drift off for a bit until I could wake. *not fun*
In this state, what one was dreaming could still be playing. But to dismiss this as simply a dream doesn't fit, since Dream Analysis for many can be a very important. I stopped dream rememberance *for the most part but naps can be trying* more than a decade ago, so I'm in the dark where dreams are concerned. *was that a pun?*

I know only one person in my mundane life that has had a similar unexplained *for some, though her and I know* experience. My youngest of my 5 sisters woke one morning thinking that someone was sitting on her back holding her down. She struggled to roll off her stomach. When she finally could she expect sister S to be there but no-one was in her room. She got up wondering how S left the room so fast and stormed into S's room yelling at her. Poor S was dumbfounded being woke like that. To this day you can still see the fear in my youngest sisters eyes when this happening is brought up.

Samhain (halloween) is considered special amongst most pagans. The wheel turns to a new year. A time between time when many call to those that are not of the mundane world any longer. The veils it is said grow thing. Just because one does not invite, does not mean that a visitation by an unknown doesn't happen. Unless measures were taken to prevent this.

To be "Special", appear to be... act like it can be the worse lable. Whether one is or thinks they are, or not can be a heavy load.
Those that have special abilities *gifts as some call it* can suffer when others sneer at them for being so, or at the opposite end of the spectrum, have a lot of Yes men/women about them that can pump the ego.
Those that jump up and down declaring how special they are, seem to be looking for their ego to be stroked or be noticed, wishful thinking?
*shrugs and chuckles*
Regardless, to be labled Special, leaves a bad taste in the mouth.

There is ... a happening, that runs through my mind that comfirms my belief that things not of this world can affect a person in the mundane world. A mundane happening that says to me, if it can happen on this level I must keep an open mind.
But this is a personal experience that happened between me and my husband. Cannot be proved nor disproved, I don't think it would help explain what it was that you experienced. It would only tell that if a person can cause such an affect on another why couldn't something not of this world do it.
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« Reply #48: November 05, 2008, 11:13:08 am »

...snip...

hmmmm, it left out the quote boxes

I copied my reply cause there was a warning another post was just posted, so I checked first before paste in a reply.

Of well....
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« Reply #49: November 05, 2008, 11:18:08 am »

Samhain (halloween) is considered special amongst most pagans.

Because this is this forum, you know someone had to make this correction:  It's considered special amongst most of a certain kind of pagan.  There are plenty of us (particularly the various recons) for whom Samhain is just another holiday that someone else's religion celebrates, or at best an excuse for some good secular fun.
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« Reply #50: November 05, 2008, 11:19:49 am »


I'd like to further pursue the notion of the meeting halfway.  Should schools teach creationism side by side with evolution to meet the fundies halfway?  Should I meet halfway with the people who say that homosexuality is a choice?

Why is it necessary to rush to meet halfway with the people who have no support for their claims?
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« Reply #51: November 05, 2008, 11:21:10 am »

Because this is this forum, you know someone had to make this correction:  It's considered special amongst most of a certain kind of pagan.  There are plenty of us (particularly the various recons) for whom Samhain is just another holiday that someone else's religion celebrates, or at best an excuse for some good secular fun.

*nods* Agreed. Perhaps the word many, would have been a better choice, or list a few... Types of pagans that do.
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« Reply #52: November 05, 2008, 01:41:36 pm »

I'll repeat my earlier question, too:  Can you tell us what specifically makes you say that this was not sleep paralysis?  You've been poking at bits of that theory, but not really said why the definite statement that it isn't, IIRC.

And, it's not just all science - as I mentioned in my original post, I'd start by looking at other metaphysical sources of information - have you done divination, meditation, ritual work, or anything else similar that might pinpoint more about what's going on *if* it is an entity of some kind?

Otherwise, you're trying to make judgments about an event without any triangulation. And that's usually bad practice, no matter what methods you're using for additional data.
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« Reply #53: November 05, 2008, 08:53:25 pm »

Such as what? To say there are other explanations for that are telling me that what I knew as a kid and what I know now are nothing but false.

I dream to much and have to many to come true not to know that it was real. I'm too logical and know to much to jump right in and go "OMFG! Betty-Su! I saw a Unicorn today!!!". I question things to many times over not listening to my instinct and yet as todays human society, there are people in this world who feel the need to make the mundane law.

The actual pressure on my chest, the actual "massage" of it was real. As real as my alarm going off and my dreams accepting it in. The same exact thing happen but with another character playing the part.

Why/How isn't it most likely that what happened was an enity of some form that had a key, found a door and took it's chance when our walls are thinned?  It's not like I'm (or many) of us are on here all the time going and telling these things. Yes, there are few who have that happen to them truthfully and there are few who make them up to be seen.

So for any of us on TC to not run down both possibilites equally is denying our selves the possibility of growing and understanding that there is more then the mundane, and that the mystical has it's mundane natures as well.
I think you get over the idea that this being sleep paralysis would necessarily make it "false" or not "real".  It doesn't.  I'm not saying you have to accept that explanation, but it in no way devalues your experience if you do.  For that matter, it could be sleep paralysis and you could still decide that it has spiritual significance for you.  The two aren't mutually exclusive.

And yes, there are times when you have to suspend disbelief until later and just get on with things.  But at others a healthy dose of cynicism is not only useful but essential.

I don't trust any 'magican' who doesn't internally go "but what if I'm talking complete crap!  Maybe I'm making this whole thing up!" at least once a week.  Of the ones I've met that don't, 99% have been annoying but harmless.  And the other 1% have been dangerously unstable.
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« Reply #54: November 05, 2008, 09:18:49 pm »

Science is based on rigorous testing, and droppin ideas that don't match the data.  Faith is largely about what 'makes sense' to a person, based on their experience and view of the world, and it generally isn't open to testing.  Actually looking and what's going on, and what available data suggests is not equivalent to deciding what 'feels right'.
That's because science and faith aim to answer entirely different types of question about reality, surely?  To expect the scientific method to be applicable to matters of faith is much like expecting the scientific method to be used to create a moving piece of music.  It's a category mistake.  You seem to be close to arguing that faith and science are mutually exclusive here.  I don't think they are, except when they're used to tackle questions that aren't within their remit- whether Creationists pseudoscience or Dawkins' attempts to apply the scientific method to theological issues.  The sizeable number of scientists who also have some kind of religious belief would seem to bear that out.


Quote
Given that there's no good evidence of anything like gods, magic, etc,itlooksto me like you're balancing the real stuff with stuff that doesn't exist.  That doesn't look like a balance to me.

Can you provide me with observable evidence that freedom exists?  Justice?  Beauty?

A couple of more general points.

Firstly, would I be right in assuming you're a scientific naturalist (the view that the scientific method is the only way to properly look at reality)?  If not, obviously this point falls.  If so though, isn't that a position arrived at through the philosophical method, not the scientific method?

Secondly, you've previously mentioned confirmation bias, which I think is a very valid point and always worth bearing in mind in this kind of discussion.  However, doesn't your own confirmation bias automatically lead you to assume something can be explained scientifically, even if (unlike in this case) you can't currently detail what that explanation would be? 
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« Reply #55: November 06, 2008, 04:15:52 am »

That's because science and faith aim to answer entirely different types of question about reality, surely?  To expect the scientific method to be applicable to matters of faith is much like expecting the scientific method to be used to create

Issues of faith are generally untestable, yes.  But in the absence of compelling evidence, I see no reason to agree with everything faith claims.  You presumably can't disprove that *I* am God, but you wouldn't believe a claim like that, would you? That's what I've been talking about really.  In the absence of compelling evidence, I'm going with what seems reasonable.  I've admitted on many an occasion that I could be wrong, and of course my approach isn't perfect.  I still find it far more reasonable.

Quote
  It's a category mistake.

I don't think you've understood my point.  That may well be my fault.  I'm not arguing that science has to prove the existence of gods or magic.  I'm suggesting that there isn't any good evidence out there to the best of my knowledge.

Quote
  You seem to be close to arguing that faith and science are mutually exclusive here.  I don't think they are, except when they're used to tackle questions that aren't within their remit- whether Creationists pseudoscience or Dawkins' attempts to apply the scientific method to theological issues.

I don't think they have to be mutually exclusive.  I do believe that where a phenomenom appears to match a known area, which has a body of knowledge, that it's a good idea to go with what is already known.

Quote
  The sizeable number of scientists who also have some kind of religious belief would seem to bear that out.

Religious belief occurs across pretty much all the demographic.  I'd note that those religious scientists don't usually use religious or spiritual explanations in lieu of scientific explanations.

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Can you provide me with observable evidence that freedom exists?  Justice?  Beauty?

Not really, nor do I give a crap.  Those are subjective issues, whereas the existence of sleep paralysis, for example, objectively exists, has been observed, and has a number of identifiable features.

Quote
A couple of more general points.

Firstly, would I be right in assuming you're a scientific naturalist (the view that the scientific method is the only way to properly look at reality)?

I don't think it's the only tool.  I just don't agree that every approach is equally valid.  For example, I don't think magic actually assists with the process, nor a number of occult and spiritual approaches.  I believe science is an approach that should be used where something can be tested, and where evidence can be garnered.

Quote
  If not, obviously this point falls.  If so though, isn't that a position arrived at through the philosophical method, not the scientific method?

Secondly, you've previously mentioned confirmation bias, which I think is a very valid point and always worth bearing in mind in this kind of discussion.  However, doesn't your own confirmation bias automatically lead you to assume something can be explained scientifically, even if (unlike in this case) you can't currently detail what that explanation would be? 

I accept evidence when it's reasonably compelling, regardless of what i want to believe.  I would like to remind people, again, that I have not always been an atheist.  I used to believe in magic, deities, etc, for a fairly lengthy period of time.  I changed my way of thinking after looking carefully at my experiences, and thinking long and hard about it.  I am not an atheist purely because I'm just an awful close minded person.

For a more recent example, I was quite fond of a particular model of affect.  However, I found one that matched the data more effectively, and actually made more connections with other relevant areas of psychology.  Although the former model still has some descriptive value, I have changed my thinking accordingly.

I think many things can be tested scientifically.  I think that a shot should usually be made at least.  Also, what you're talking about doesn't particularly sound like confirmation bias.

I'm open to actual evidence.  If someone can point to a phenomenom, then let it be tested.  What routinely happens is that there is an explanation, but that believers carry on believing regardless.  Where there isn't an explanation, it's time for research and study. Not standing back and blithely saying 'gee, it's a god!'

I'd also draw your attention to the fact that I don't get up in arms like this in every thread.  I'll let you on a little secret.  I really don't mind if someone looks at my suggestion, says 'thanks, I'll think about it, but I want to see some other options too.'

Read this thread again, please.  That's not what happened here.
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« Reply #56: November 09, 2008, 02:31:03 pm »

Sleep paralysis.

Very well might be. I had something happen to me when I was 17 years old that scared the daylights out of me.One night I was lying in my bed and all of a sudden there was a very loud noise and a bright light shown into my window and I could not move,I felt paralyzed as I held tightly to my bed,in fear of being sucked up into the light. Then it stopped and I ran downstairs and my mother thought I was on some kind of drug, because she heard and saw nothing.

Years later, actually recently I read something about this sleep paralysis and it described exactly what happened to me.All these years I thought I was almost abducted by aliens!
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« Reply #57: November 12, 2008, 02:40:10 pm »

sleep paralysis.
So now you know what the condition is called and that nobody knows for absolute certainty what causes it. You need to figure out for yourself whether this experience was something spiritual, something psychological, something physical, or something relating to all or none of these. Ask yourself questions regarding the experience, your gut will guide you.
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« Reply #58: November 12, 2008, 03:55:11 pm »

So now you know what the condition is called and that nobody knows for absolute certainty what causes it. You need to figure out for yourself whether this experience was something spiritual, something psychological, something physical, or something relating to all or none of these. Ask yourself questions regarding the experience, your gut will guide you.

I assume you intended to address the original participant?
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« Reply #59: November 12, 2008, 03:58:43 pm »

I assume you intended to address the original participant?
Yes. Apologies for the confusion.
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