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Author Topic: Your Gods and where you live  (Read 16454 times)
Dem
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« Reply #30: November 27, 2008, 01:17:30 am »

Can I ask; why would you never approach the Gods of the Maori culture? Do you feel that you have no 'right' to? (for lack of a better word).

If you mean, "the gods of pre-colonial Maori culture" then yeah, pretty much. The couple of people I know who do work with those deities are in agreeance that these gods aren't terribly available to non-Maori, by Their choice as much as by Pakeha (European NZer) fear of cultural appropriation. It's a shame, because colonisation worked pretty effectively in converting the tangata whenua (people of the land) to Christianity, and I think that both the Maori and the gods would benefit from more contact.

While a lot of Maori myths and traditions have survived and been integrated into both their secular culture and even Christian traditions, there's not much actual active worship of the old gods still happening. All that remains is the honouring of the atua (ancestors, heroes and gods) simply as part of Maori history and identity. Which is cool. I have a lot of respect for Maori culture, as my worldview encompasses a lot of similar ideas.

Maori do not believe that everyone is equal. This isn't a negative thing. They're just a lot more keenly aware of cultural diversity than most non-Maori Westerners, probably because they've fought so hard to keep theirs alive in the face of Pakeha apathy. However, it also means that non-Maori are not entitled to share in Maori-specific things.

I had a whole spiel that continued on from here, but it started to get political rather than spiritual and not terribly relevant to the topic at hand, so I've cut it short. I could talk about life in NZ 'til the cows come home, so if you wanna know more feel free to PM me!  Grin
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« Reply #31: November 27, 2008, 02:50:16 am »

If you moved across the country, to a different country, or even to a completely different continent, do you think you would still strongly feel the presence of your God(s)/Goddess(es)?

Firstly, I don't worship gods (never met any).  But my spirituality is so intimately tied to where I live, it would be impossible to practice the same variety in a completely different climate.  The spirits of the land are (like the plants and animals) adapted to the climate, the soil, the water.  To decide to ignore these factors and have the same holy days (or holy days at the same time of year) would be entirely contradictory to my beliefs.  "Spirit of place" is the axis around which everything else revolves.

Brina
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« Reply #32: November 27, 2008, 10:39:03 am »

The spirits of the land are (like the plants and animals) adapted to the climate, the soil, the water.  To decide to ignore these factors and have the same holy days (or holy days at the same time of year) would be entirely contradictory to my beliefs.  "Spirit of place" is the axis around which everything else revolves.

Brina

This has been my experience when I've moved.  Having a strong relationship with the spirits of one place has made it easier to develop a relationship with the new place, but it couldn't be exactly the same.  It takes at least a full year before I really feel that I'm part of a place, as opposed to just living on top of it.  I never entirely lose my connection to the old place; I can still feel it through the earth, if that makes any sense.  I've never been outside of North America, so I'm not sure what effect a large body of water would make.

Absent and Juniper's posts struck a chord with me also.  I have a nameless goddess (I've given up trying find out her name for the time being) who seems to be completely unaffected by place.  Another deity/spirit honcho of mine I would expect to be different in other parts of North America, and nearly unrecognizable in Europe.  I think this is similar to Absent's situation, especially if the One she referred to is who I think he is.  I wonder if this is a characteristic of animal deities?

Betty
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« Reply #33: November 27, 2008, 08:49:34 pm »

If you mean, "the gods of pre-colonial Maori culture" then yeah, pretty much. The couple of people I know who do work with those deities are in agreeance that these gods aren't terribly available to non-Maori, by Their choice as much as by Pakeha (European NZer) fear of cultural appropriation. It's a shame, because colonisation worked pretty effectively in converting the tangata whenua (people of the land) to Christianity, and I think that both the Maori and the gods would benefit from more contact.

While a lot of Maori myths and traditions have survived and been integrated into both their secular culture and even Christian traditions, there's not much actual active worship of the old gods still happening. All that remains is the honouring of the atua (ancestors, heroes and gods) simply as part of Maori history and identity. Which is cool. I have a lot of respect for Maori culture, as my worldview encompasses a lot of similar ideas.

Can I ask; what kind of Maori myths/traditions have been integrated into secular and Christian traditions?

I find it a bit odd that if the gods of the pre-colonial Maori culture do not receive much active worship, why they wouldn't be accepting of non-Maori paying them homage if the intent is geniune. Perhaps it is that they do not feel at ease in this new day-and-age and prefer to keep themselves to themselves.

Maori do not believe that everyone is equal. This isn't a negative thing. They're just a lot more keenly aware of cultural diversity than most non-Maori Westerners, probably because they've fought so hard to keep theirs alive in the face of Pakeha apathy. However, it also means that non-Maori are not entitled to share in Maori-specific things.

Interesting. Is it considered rude? Even if the non-Maori has a very geniune interest in their traditions?
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« Reply #34: November 28, 2008, 04:46:22 am »

Can I ask; what kind of Maori myths/traditions have been integrated into secular and Christian traditions?

Mythology; but instead of being religious in focus, it's historical, a kind of "who we were" story telling instead of a "who the gods are". Lineage: but instead of being a tie to the gods, it's used in understanding ones identity within the tribe. Forms of karakia (prayers); but with Christian language inserted into an older style. That kind of thing. It's kind of hard to explain to someone who doesn't experience the culture. Even as a non-Maori NZer, I experience it enough to be able to know how things are, without quite understanding why! Heh.

I find it a bit odd that if the gods of the pre-colonial Maori culture do not receive much active worship, why they wouldn't be accepting of non-Maori paying them homage if the intent is geniune. Perhaps it is that they do not feel at ease in this new day-and-age and prefer to keep themselves to themselves.

To Maori, lineage is a cultural imperative. I suspect that their pre-colonial gods feel the same. In fact, the Maori valuing of lineage is probably directly related to that. In NZ, if you can name your iwi/tribe then you get a bunch of extra priviledges that non-Maori do not, and that Maori who can't name their iwi do not.

If you're one of the few (these days) Maori who can actually speak their entire pepeha (sort of a spoken tribal history which names the waka/canoe, chief, river and mountain that belong to your tribe as well as the name of that tribe, your hapu/sub-tribe, marae/meeting place, and your own name), you gain quite a lot of prestige in the community. In times not long past, it would be a given that Maori would be able to speak their pepeha, but cultural unification that happened last century did a lot to suppress the language (not necessarily out of malice, but more out of ignorance of the consequences) and the pepeha became a bit of a lost art.

Interesting. Is it considered rude? Even if the non-Maori has a very geniune interest in their traditions?

It's considered inappropriate. If you can't quite understand why, even after what I've written above, then I don't think I can do justice to an explanation, sorry. Just a cultural difference, I'm afraid.

For Maori, religion was not separate from everyday life. I have an idea that Maori believed religion was mostly of benefit to the people, and that the gods would just get on with their own stuff regardless, but I have no proof for that! Smiley

Disclaimer: I'm not a Maori scholar. My ideas about Maori culture and pre-colonial religion come from my own experiences, from growing up in a heavily Maori-populated and Maori-focused town (we're also a bit of a tourist town, and unlike other tourist hotspots in NZ the majority of attractions here are either Maori culture specific or owned & operated by Maori tribes).
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« Reply #35: November 28, 2008, 01:24:04 pm »

If you're one of the few (these days) Maori who can actually speak their entire pepeha (sort of a spoken tribal history which names the waka/canoe, chief, river and mountain that belong to your tribe as well as the name of that tribe, your hapu/sub-tribe, marae/meeting place, and your own name), you gain quite a lot of prestige in the community. In times not long past, it would be a given that Maori would be able to speak their pepeha, but cultural unification that happened last century did a lot to suppress the language (not necessarily out of malice, but more out of ignorance of the consequences) and the pepeha became a bit of a lost art.

It's a shame that it's a lost art. I've always thought that aspects of the Native American culture have become a bit that way, too, but it seems as though the Maori culture may be even more elusive than that.

It's considered inappropriate. If you can't quite understand why, even after what I've written above, then I don't think I can do justice to an explanation, sorry. Just a cultural difference, I'm afraid.

I only understand because it is a cultural difference. As a non-Maori I realize that it's going to be near-impossible to get my head around it Cheesy

Thankyou for answering all of my questions!
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« Reply #36: November 28, 2008, 03:09:14 pm »

It's a shame that it's a lost art. I've always thought that aspects of the Native American culture have become a bit that way, too, but it seems as though the Maori culture may be even more elusive than that.

Hrm, just to clarify: appreciation of Maori culture has undergone a huge revival in my lifetime, thankfully. My best friend, for example, is Maori & spends a lot of time on her ancestral land and at her marae, her partner lectures in Maori language and builds teaching packages for other teachers of it, her kids go to a kura kaupapa (school which teaches in a Maori cultural manner, including traditional arts & crafts, using the language for lessons, etc), her brother owns a tattoo workshop where he primarily does Maori moko work, she voted in our recent election for the Maori Party... 50 years ago, all of those things would've been very rare or impossible to do for non-rural Maori.

I love NZ, and all our cultures. Because of where I grew up, I especially love (my own) Pakeha culture and Maori culture, and am endlessly fascinated by the way they intertwine. I could talk about it forever! Smiley I really think NZers have some unusual ways of looking at things, because our history is really unique and has shaped our cultures into something special.
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« Reply #37: November 28, 2008, 03:25:10 pm »

I only understand because it is a cultural difference. As a non-Maori I realize that it's going to be near-impossible to get my head around it Cheesy

It might be helpful to think of it as famtrad.

If you're not a member of the family, you don't need to know how the family does things, and trying to find out is kind of rude and prying and not respectful of the family itself.  It might be possible for someone to be adopted into such a family, but only if the family decides they're worthy, and saying, "Adopt me?  Please?" isn't likely to get people thinking one's worthy.

And pakeha who think certain Maori stuff is "cool" without knowing what it means create a certain amount of prejudice against people being able to handle this stuff in earnest.  I saw a photo a while back of a man who had been tattooed with a moko ... a woman's moko.  No Maori would take that guy seriously, and at minimum no pakeha who doesn't immediately know why it's ridiculous will get the time of day.  (That's just a bit of knowledge I have; I fully expect that there are gazillions of other cues like that that I don't know.)
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« Reply #38: December 07, 2008, 02:13:20 pm »

It might be helpful to think of it as famtrad.

If you're not a member of the family, you don't need to know how the family does things, and trying to find out is kind of rude and prying and not respectful of the family itself.  It might be possible for someone to be adopted into such a family, but only if the family decides they're worthy, and saying, "Adopt me?  Please?" isn't likely to get people thinking one's worthy.

And pakeha who think certain Maori stuff is "cool" without knowing what it means create a certain amount of prejudice against people being able to handle this stuff in earnest.  I saw a photo a while back of a man who had been tattooed with a moko ... a woman's moko.  No Maori would take that guy seriously, and at minimum no pakeha who doesn't immediately know why it's ridiculous will get the time of day.  (That's just a bit of knowledge I have; I fully expect that there are gazillions of other cues like that that I don't know.)

Yes, Famtrad is a good analogy, but we can take that a step further even: Maori spirituality is tied up in this land (and thus, their arrival here becomes very important) and in their heritage (being able to trace your ancestry back to the waka/canoe that arrived on this land is vital to anyone who identifies as Maori today). People who aren't tied to the land, who don't share that heritage, will always be cut off from Maori spirituality. It's not fair, but then it's not supposed to be.

I went to school with a guy who looked as European as could be: blond hair, blue eyes, very pale skin colour, slender build. But because he could trace his Maori ancestry back through a Maori great-grandmother, he went to University on a tribal scholarship for Maori (tertiary education here isn't free, so the vast majority of students have to rely on loans - scholarships come in very handy!). A lot of NZers share Maori ancestry, and even those of us who don't are a part of Maori culture simply by living smack bang in the heart of it!

A friend of mine has referred to "Makeha" - Pakeha who think being Maori is so cool that they adopt aspects of the culture, such as greeting everyone with "Kia ora" and other snippets of te reo Maori (language). It's a source of much amusement amongst actual Maori, and would no doubt leave the Makeha quite embarassed should they ever find out just what people think about them!

Maori don't typically "fear" pakeha stealing their culture, because Maori know that pakeha can't. It's not a part of pakeha, so they'll never truly get it. And the revival of interest in Maori culture amongst young Maori is such that it's in no danger of dying out any time soon!

Omg rambling, sorry... and I have to go to work!
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« Reply #39: June 21, 2009, 07:59:31 am »

If you moved across the country, to a different country, or even to a completely different continent, do you think you would still strongly feel the presence of your God(s)/Goddess(es)?

Why/ why not?

hi ...


A very interesting question wíth very interesting answers ... Cheesy

My experience with my special two deities is, that I can fell them ever and where ever I am.
BUT: sometimes the quality of feeling changes, or the feeling itsself is a little bit different.
Maybe, the new place has a special feeling and influences that may "contact" with this two special deities...

For example ...
My "hometown" is in the very east of Germany. There is a lot of nature and during many hundred years, there where slavic (Wendian/Sorbic) sanctuarys and cult places (in use) ...
There I have an other direct access to my two deities as here in the "Ruhrpott" - where I live now .
It´s neither better or inferior - but it is simply different.

When I traveled in some different European Countries, I felt this difference too. Each Area has its own feeling. And this feeling influence in a more or less subtle way my connection with "my" two deities.
But these two deities are a part of me and I appear to be a little part of them (sorry, I don´t know, how this felling is better to describe), so that the location is subordinate ...


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« Reply #40: November 02, 2009, 09:56:55 pm »

I know that there has been a thread at some point discussing whether or not deities are tied to place, but I want to ask a more direct question:

If you moved across the country, to a different country, or even to a completely different continent, do you think you would still strongly feel the presence of your God(s)/Goddess(es)?

Why/ why not?
Yes. For my deities are not tied intrinsically to any place. Though some might say they are tied to Greece, they are truly tied to there aspects. Zeus is the thunderstorm and a thunderstorm is a thunderstorm anywhere on earth. Only nymphd and lesser deities are tied to one area or object, but there are so many of them it would be easy to find more wherever I went. Beyond this, my relationship with my gods is not lightly set aside. This is one of the few beneficial ideas I took from my previous Christian beliefs. Mission work is founded on the idea.
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« Reply #41: November 03, 2009, 10:51:01 am »

I know that there has been a thread at some point discussing whether or not deities are tied to place, but I want to ask a more direct question:

If you moved across the country, to a different country, or even to a completely different continent, do you think you would still strongly feel the presence of your God(s)/Goddess(es)?

Why/ why not?

So far, I think I would still feel the presence of my gods. Perhaps their influences might vary a bit, but really, I think I would still feel them. I've lived all across the US, and they've always managed to find me Tongue About the only thing that changes is I feel way closer to Setekh when I'm sitting in a desert monsoon storm- which is only found in some desert areas. However, I've learned to identify with him in heavy snow storms up here, so in the end, it all works.

As for your second question, I think that the influence of the AE culture could play a part in how they are worshipped and interact with me, but innately, I do believe they can roam as they please, and aren't limited to Egyptian soil.

-Devo
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« Reply #42: November 03, 2009, 12:06:44 pm »

I know that there has been a thread at some point discussing whether or not deities are tied to place, but I want to ask a more direct question:

If you moved across the country, to a different country, or even to a completely different continent, do you think you would still strongly feel the presence of your God(s)/Goddess(es)?

Why/ why not?

My gods are culturally tied to me, but not necessarily to the land. In my part of western Canada (which was predominantly British for most of it's history) the gods feel at home in the urban areas. In the rural parts of the country, especially in areas dominated by First Persons Cultures (Native Americans) my gods are quiet; as if showing respecful deference in other territory.

I felt exactly the same way while I was living in India earlier this year.  My gods are with me, a part of me, but they tread lightly on the land of other dieties. As strange at it may sound, they would never enter the temples of other gods when I was there. I got a sense of "You go on in, we'll wait out here for you...."


Because we invoke our gods into sacred space via the circle, I can carry my "temple" with me where ever I go. However, I do have a sense that the gods, as I deal with them, are territorial and mindful of others spaces. I do not have that belief that all gods are one god, all goddesses are one goddess etc. They are individual, culturally specific, and mindful of one another. YMMV of course.

Teri

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« Reply #43: November 11, 2009, 05:48:32 pm »

I'd like to add to my previous statement. Although my Gods are not necessarily tied to any one place, there are some that I do not always feel the presence of. Poseidon, for example, is one God I have not yet really had an experience with. Though I know he is here, I am not particularly drawn to him. Maybe if I went to the sea or went horseback riding I might sense his power. A trip to the beach is not a bad idea either! I've been wanting to go.
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« Reply #44: November 11, 2009, 06:38:17 pm »

I know that there has been a thread at some point discussing whether or not deities are tied to place, but I want to ask a more direct question:

If you moved across the country, to a different country, or even to a completely different continent, do you think you would still strongly feel the presence of your God(s)/Goddess(es)?

Why/ why not?

Fascinating question. I don't think I can completely answer it! My experiences are..unique.

Looking back on my childhood (when I lived in Florida) I can *definitely* say that I had a Dolphin totem. Now that I live in landlocked North Dakota, I don't feel drawn to them at all, *except* when I visit the ocean. Invairiably a pod swims past me, close to shore (happened last week--there were 3 different pods in the bay, actually). When at the ocean, Dolphin Spirit appears and loves me. But not when I'm far away. So in this instance, place matters.

The totem spirit that calls me now is the Eagle/Hawk--and I see them all the time in my area (particularly the Red Tailed Hawk). Also, Eagles and Hawks are a global phenomenon, so I'll never be able to definitely tell on that one.

When it comes to specific Gods or Goddesses, I am unsure. None claimed me until this year when Sekhmet and Anubis enthusiastically claimed me. Again, I'm in North Dakota. You would think I could answer "no, the place doesn't matter, I'm in the middle of the US and They are from Egypt". BUT--I have one of the few north flowing rivers in North America literally in my backyard. My Dieties were worshipped in a region with a North flowing river--the Nile. So perhaps if I moved away they would move on? I don't know.

I prefer to believe that they are in it for the long haul, and that it isn't just an accident of geography. But I do believe that in addition to the "bigger" dieties (who may or may not move around), that there are spirits of Place--that there is a Spirit of each river and mountain, etc. 

I can't completely answer that question. But it is a compelling one!

*Phoenix
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