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Author Topic: Another School Shooting- 30 Confirmed Dead  (Read 17020 times)
sailor_tech
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« Reply #45: April 20, 2007, 05:45:04 pm »

It's definitely not Lyric's position. I'm not sure how it got skewed so that it was. My position is just that there are places carrying a gun is a VERY BAD IDEA. I'm also not a big fan of automatic or semi-automatic weapons in the private sector.

Other than that, I don't have much of an opinion on it.

Quick query. You are aware what a semi-automatic is?  As opposed to a revolver when talking handguns. I can understand the objections to full-auto weapons, but generally people opposed to semi-autos do not know what the term means. From the earlier posts you seem to know something about guns, so your objection to semi-auto weapons seems odd to me.
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« Reply #46: April 20, 2007, 05:52:57 pm »

Quick query. You are aware what a semi-automatic is?  As opposed to a revolver when talking handguns. I can understand the objections to full-auto weapons, but generally people opposed to semi-autos do not know what the term means. From the earlier posts you seem to know something about guns, so your objection to semi-auto weapons seems odd to me.


Peter,

Gods above. Nope. Don't know a damn thing about them. Seriously didn't mean to give that impression.
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« Reply #47: April 20, 2007, 05:57:40 pm »

Peter,

Gods above. Nope. Don't know a damn thing about them. Seriously didn't mean to give that impression.

Ok, so what is the objection to having a weapon that each time you pull the trigger it fires one bullet and then loads another round ready to pull the trigger again. Not much different in application than a revolver which rotates the cylinder after each trigger pull, bring another round to the firing chamber.

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« Reply #48: April 20, 2007, 06:07:13 pm »

Ok, so what is the objection to having a weapon that each time you pull the trigger it fires one bullet and then loads another round ready to pull the trigger again. Not much different in application than a revolver which rotates the cylinder after each trigger pull, bring another round to the firing chamber.



I had to ask Randall about that, and apparently my problems aren't with the semi-automatic itself, but the automatics that are sold as semi-automatics but can be converted to automatics.

That help?
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« Reply #49: April 20, 2007, 06:11:45 pm »

I had to ask Randall about that, and apparently my problems aren't with the semi-automatic itself, but the automatics that are sold as semi-automatics but can be converted to automatics.

That help?

Yes, that helps.

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bobthesane
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« Reply #50: April 20, 2007, 06:24:13 pm »

Yeah, I can agree that I see no reason for private ownership of fully automatic weapons (aside from the gangbangers all have them and I'd like to be able to shoot back at the same rate of fire).
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« Reply #51: April 20, 2007, 08:58:59 pm »

Gwyn,

I've no idea how long you've been on this board, but I know it's several years. I can't believe you've quoted Worldnet Daily as a source. You know that's a source that ranks right up there with Wikipedia for "proof."

Sorry, but that's just not going to fly.

Okay then...
    * Gary Kleck. Point Blank: Guns and Violence in America. (Aldine de Gruyter, 1991). ISBN 0-202-30419-1

    * David McDowall, Brian Wiersema and Colin Loftin. (1989). "Did Mandatory firearm ownership in Kennesaw really prevent burglaries?" Sociology and Social Research 74:48-51. (his take is burglaries slightly up, assaults, rapes and murders WAY down)

    * David McDowall, Alan J. Lizotte and Brian Wiersema. (1991). "General Deterrence Through Civilian Gun Ownership: An Evaluation of the Quasi-Experimental Evidence," Criminology 29:4 (November): 541-559.

http://findarticles.com/p/articles/mi_m1282/is_n15_v46/ai_15729634
 Next story was originally in the Marietta Ga paper, but I could not go through the archives (without paying!), so I had to get it from a pro-gun conservative source.
http://www.rense.com/general9/gunlaw.htm

New York Times Op-Ed piece:
http://www.nytimes.com/2007/01/16/opinion/16reynolds.html?ex=1326603600&en=3b3fcfadc7e7f096&ei=5088&partner=rssnyt&emc=rss

yahoonews:
http://fe4.news.re3.yahoo.com/s/nm/20070418/us_nm/usa_crime_shooting_town_dc

And this has the stats from the FBI for Ga, the US and Kennesaw for 2004....scroll down:
http://www.freerepublic.com/focus/f-news/1818862/posts

Seriously, it doesn't matter at this point where or who anyone quotes. I read a lot of different sources, both online and off. Liberal, conservative...doesn't matter...the data can be skewed to fit damn near any point anyone wants to make.
Even the FBI *bends* stats to suit their purpose, as far as I can tell.
I am a constitutionalist and firmly believe that the most basic right of any person is the right to self-defense.

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« Reply #52: April 21, 2007, 09:40:25 am »

Have you seen the comments about the kid, (Cho Seung) by his high school peers?

http://www.boston.com/news/nation/articles/2007/04/20/for_years_cho_hid_behind_wall_of_silence/?page=2
Quote
‘‘As soon as he started reading, the whole class started laughing and pointing and saying, ‘Go back to China,’.’’ said Davids.

Others talk about him as potentially having autism, aspergers perhaps?  Which might explain quite a bit of the inability to connect socially.

http://news.independent.co.uk/world/americas/article2469257.ece

What needs to be addressed isn't gun control.  By the time it's gotten there, it's too late.  The person already has the will to kill, which wont just go away.  Trying to put it on the mental institutions who get thousands of suicide watches dumped on them weekly, is unreasonable as well.

Could you imagine not being able to pass a background check because after a low point in your life you did something stupid and got caught cutting or something of the like?  It wouldn't lower the suicide attempt rates, it would raise the number of successfully suicidal because getting help means having a paper trail that will keep you from being socially accepted - and even affect you economically for the rest of your life.

What needs to be addressed is how schools have changed in the last twenty years.

Could it be that we've socially refined verbal and social violence to the degree where those who before would have been in the nurses office with bloody noses and being sent home regardless of who's wrong - you're both wrong;  have created a structure where those who are socially strong can run roughshod over those who lack the social ability, and the consequences of striking back on small scale - fistfights, verbal confrontations are too high?

As a geek, punching the quarterback holds impossibly high consequences.  Not only are you going to get your face ground into the ground gang style, you will be socially exiled far beyond your current experience - which may already be severe. 

They are told withstand.  They are either broken by the structure.  I am a geek, I accept it; with whatever justifications I must use to do so (they are jealous.) or they become outraged by it and do something to themselves or others. 

There was one person in your class, the *cootie*  the one who didn't shower, the one even those who weren't popular talked shit at because they could.  They were the class sanctioned looser. 

This is what happens when that person finally snaps.

The people who push them there, DO have blood on their hands.

What we need is consequences for the people who push another person that far. 
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« Reply #53: April 21, 2007, 11:29:42 am »

Gwyn,

I am simply not seeing the concealed carry law as a hot button issue. For the most part, I don't find Second Amendment issues that much of a topic.

However, you will not ever get me to agree that the idea of carrying a concealed weapon on a campus is a good thing. And yes, I think the people who are advocating everyone carrying a weapon are loons. Period.



Well, they may not be loons. 

I do a lot of renfaires - from the 'working' and 'visiting' sides.  I have always found that the only real 'troublemakers' are the ones that don't realize that the woman they are harrassing (as an example) is carrying a knife on her belt.  And many people around also have swords - and know how to use them.  I have heard the opinion that those who do ren faires on a regular basis are 'one big happy family'.  But, as a one of the best blacksmiths (he specializes in swords) in the area said, "no one in their right mind picks on someone who's armed".  And it sure makes the un-costumed visitor nervous when he picks on a teenage girl and is then surrounded by security folks in costumes that include swords.  I think most uncostumed visitors don't realize that most of the security at a faire is in full costume.  And that the swords are real.

I am not advocatng everyone running around armed, but it could (as in Gwynyvr's example) make a difference.
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« Reply #54: April 21, 2007, 12:04:10 pm »

Well, they may not be loons. 

I do a lot of renfaires - from the 'working' and 'visiting' sides.  I have always found that the only real 'troublemakers' are the ones that don't realize that the woman they are harrassing (as an example) is carrying a knife on her belt.  And many people around also have swords - and know how to use them.  I have heard the opinion that those who do ren faires on a regular basis are 'one big happy family'.  But, as a one of the best blacksmiths (he specializes in swords) in the area said, "no one in their right mind picks on someone who's armed".  And it sure makes the un-costumed visitor nervous when he picks on a teenage girl and is then surrounded by security folks in costumes that include swords.  I think most uncostumed visitors don't realize that most of the security at a faire is in full costume.  And that the swords are real.

I am not advocatng everyone running around armed, but it could (as in Gwynyvr's example) make a difference.

Or it might not make a difference. That's my point. And it's the reason I'm against concealed carry in certain cases. I don't run with the illusion that "If I'd been there, it would have been different." What I lean to is that there would be more shootings because of the availability when people and guns are in certain circumstances. And I've just not seen anything that makes me think otherwise.

Like I said. I'm not anti-gun or pro-gun laws, but I take a jaundiced view of human nature, and I know that some people when given an opportunity will overreact.
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RandallS
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« Reply #55: April 21, 2007, 05:45:03 pm »

Could it be that we've socially refined verbal and social violence to the degree where those who before would have been in the nurses office with bloody noses and being sent home regardless of who's wrong - you're both wrong;  have created a structure where those who are socially strong can run roughshod over those who lack the social ability, and the consequences of striking back on small scale - fistfights, verbal confrontations are too high?

Yes, we have. Zero tolerance policies toward any violence mean that those who are good are verbal bullying can go after those who are not knowing that little or nothing will be done against them and that if the person they bully dares to strike them for they will be expeled or even jailed. Zero tolerance policies in general are idiotic, IMHO.
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« Reply #56: April 22, 2007, 01:54:07 am »

Could it be that we've socially refined verbal and social violence to the degree where those who before would have been in the nurses office with bloody noses and being sent home regardless of who's wrong - you're both wrong;  have created a structure where those who are socially strong can run roughshod over those who lack the social ability, and the consequences of striking back on small scale - fistfights, verbal confrontations are too high?

---snip---

What we need is consequences for the people who push another person that far. 

An example that popped into mind here  -  My father was extremely abusive.  But when I and my sisters think back on it, nearly everything he did was *verbal.*  We came up with very few instantances of actual physical abuse but the mental list was endless.  We were all extremely afraid of him and it was the words, not the actions that scared us.

There are times when I'm surprised that we made it out, away from him and no one ended up hurt.  So I understand the pressure of being unable to fight back because the verbal tongue lashings we received gave no one cause to kick his butt and get away with it.

Zero tolerance sucks, imho.  I don't think consequences for the perpetrator are ever gonna happen.  They talk too good, and their money spends better. Sad
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« Reply #57: April 22, 2007, 05:21:01 am »

And an example of what happens when students DO have available firearms at a university...
<snip>
For those who wring their hands and say "two wrongs don't make a right," please note: The good guys didn't shoot the bad guy. But because they were armed, they were able to stop him. End of story.

The thing is, if guns were NOT readily available, they likely wouldn't have needed any to stop him. I'm Dutch. Gun control laws here are a LOT stricter. I could probably get a gun legally if I REALLY wanted to and if I had a good reason for wanting one. I have no idea how to go about it though, and I don't know a single person here who owns anything heavier than an air pressure gun, although I do know a few people who go to a shooting range occasionally.

We have had school attacks here. Nutjobs happen, obviously. However, worst case scenario here has been one or two dead, for the simple reason that they're very unlikely to have more than a knife, making it a LOT easier to get the situation under control.

I understand that a lot of people in the US feel differently, even if I heartily disagree. But I'm stunned by the people insisting that banning fire arms would make situations like this worse, or that the ready availability of guns (didn't one of the Columbine shooters order a (semi-)automatic over the internet?) has nothing at all to do with these things. You might argue that it's a price worth paying or some such - again, I heartily disagree, but it could be a valid arguement - but there is no WAY this guy could have taken down 32 people if he hadn't been able to get his hands on firearms.

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« Reply #58: April 22, 2007, 08:21:27 am »

....I don't know a single person here who owns anything heavier than an air pressure gun, although I do know a few people who go to a shooting range occasionally.

Whereas I know lots of people who own guns -- of course, I live in a part of the US where gun ownership is common. I expect there to be a gun in most houses.

Quote
We have had school attacks here. Nutjobs happen, obviously. However, worst case scenario here has been one or two dead, for the simple reason that they're very unlikely to have more than a knife, making it a LOT easier to get the situation under control.

Given that most of our mass shootings in school have be preplanned attacks by fairly bright people, I suspect that they might kill as many people if they did not have access to guns as bombs are easy to make and there are lots of interesting chemicals that produce nasty effects in the average high school chemistry lab.
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« Reply #59: April 23, 2007, 04:28:27 pm »

Yes, we have. Zero tolerance policies toward any violence mean that those who are good are verbal bullying can go after those who are not knowing that little or nothing will be done against them and that if the person they bully dares to strike them for they will be expeled or even jailed. Zero tolerance policies in general are idiotic, IMHO.

There's a reason my autistic son is in the adaptive PE in highschool.  Physically, he's not disabled, but it's the most likely place for him to get socially in trouble.
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