The Cauldron: A Pagan Forum (Archive Board)
October 16, 2019, 03:09:58 am *
Welcome, Guest. Please login or register.

Login with username, password and session length
News: This is our Read Only Archive Board (closed to posting July 2011). Join our new vBulletin board!
 
  Portal   Forum   Help Rules Search Chat (Mux) Articles Login Register   *

Welcome, Guest. Please login or register.
October 16, 2019, 03:09:58 am

Login with username, password and session length
Donate!
The Cauldron's server is expensive and requires monthly payments. Please become a Bronze, Silver or Gold Donor if you can. Donations are needed every month. Without member support, we can't afford the server.
TC Staff
Important Information about this Archive Board
This message board is The Cauldron: A Pagan Forum's SMF Archive Board. It is closed to new memberships and to posting, but there are over 250,000 messages here that you can still search and read -- many full of interesting and useful information. (This board was open from February 2007 through June 2011).

Our new vBulletin discussion board is located at http://www.ecauldron.com/forum/ -- if you would like to participate in discussions like those you see here, please visit our new vBulletin message board, register an account and join in our discussions. We hope you will find the information in this message archive useful and will consider joining us on our new board.
Pages: 1 ... 4 5 [6] 7   Go Down
  Add bookmark  |  Print  
Author Topic: What if Your Kids...  (Read 16970 times)
Sperran
Reserve Staff
Staff
High Adept Member
***
Last Login:October 18, 2014, 02:07:12 am
United States United States

Religion: Judaism
Posts: 2945


Adonai Echad

Blog entries (8)


« Reply #75: November 17, 2010, 08:00:42 am »

Tell me... what would you do if your children were GLBT?

I've watched this thread and its zombie resurrection and find it interesting that there is very little separating out based on whether one is dealing with an orientation issue (GLB) or an identity issue (transgender).  I have often felt that the two get lumped together inappropriately.  The kinds of resources and coping mechanisms needed are very different for the two.  With orientation issues, this might not even surface until the kid is old enough to start looking for a romantic partner.  With trans issues, parents might be asked from a very young age to start making intense and difficult decisions for their children...e.g. should we put them on hormone suppressant therapies...should we allow them to dress cross-gender at school...where do we tell them to use the restroom, etc. 

That doesn't mean that a person wouldn't accept and love a child no matter what, but I think that the learning curve is quantitatively and qualitatively different.

Sperran
Logged

Welcome, Guest!
You will need to register and/or login to participate in our discussions.

Read our Rules and Policies and the Quoting Guidelines.

Help Fund Our Server? Donate to Lyricfox's Cancer Fund?

GarlicandMint
Senior Apprentice
**
Last Login:May 18, 2013, 09:53:14 pm
United States United States

Religion: Eclectic Solitary
Posts: 54

Blog entries (0)



Ignore
« Reply #76: November 17, 2010, 09:49:07 am »

I've watched this thread and its zombie resurrection and find it interesting that there is very little separating out based on whether one is dealing with an orientation issue (GLB) or an identity issue (transgender).  I have often felt that the two get lumped together inappropriately.  The kinds of resources and coping mechanisms needed are very different for the two.  With orientation issues, this might not even surface until the kid is old enough to start looking for a romantic partner.  With trans issues, parents might be asked from a very young age to start making intense and difficult decisions for their children...e.g. should we put them on hormone suppressant therapies...should we allow them to dress cross-gender at school...where do we tell them to use the restroom, etc. 

That doesn't mean that a person wouldn't accept and love a child no matter what, but I think that the learning curve is quantitatively and qualitatively different.

Sperran

That is definitely a good point, with the rising amount of parents supporting and recognizing theirgender variant children!

Many of my friends identified as queer years before they identified as trans. Of course, I went to a women's college so anyone who was male-identified before then wouldn't have gone (I can think of one exception) and anyone who was female-identified and trans probably wouldn't have been female on paper, and thus not allowed, which is horrible and an entirely different rant. One of my friends came out as a lesbian to his (conservative Muslim) parents in the first year of school and was nearly disowned, but when he came out as trans, they were surprisingly cool with it. I suppose there's only so many times you can flip out before you realize it's time to breathe and move on.  Wink

To answer the question, I kind of hope my kids are queer! They'd be in good company with their moms, 2 grandpas, extended chosen family, and numerous cousins.  Cheesy
Logged
mandrina
High Adept Member
******
Last Login:August 13, 2013, 11:51:25 pm
United States United States

Religion: Reclaiming practice, still trying to identify diety, but have some ideas
Posts: 3546


Blog entries (0)



Ignore
« Reply #77: November 17, 2010, 09:52:35 am »

I've watched this thread and its zombie resurrection and find it interesting that there is very little separating out based on whether one is dealing with an orientation issue (GLB) or an identity issue (transgender).  I have often felt that the two get lumped together inappropriately.  The kinds of resources and coping mechanisms needed are very different for the two.  With orientation issues, this might not even surface until the kid is old enough to start looking for a romantic partner.  With trans issues, parents might be asked from a very young age to start making intense and difficult decisions for their children...e.g. should we put them on hormone suppressant therapies...should we allow them to dress cross-gender at school...where do we tell them to use the restroom, etc. 

That doesn't mean that a person wouldn't accept and love a child no matter what, but I think that the learning curve is quantitatively and qualitatively different.

Sperran

The trans would be harder, I think, for the reasons you mentioned, and given the other difficulties, I think I'd rather Victor be gay than trans.  Neither will make his way easier, but gay is easier for others to deal with, and when it comes down to it, if necessary, easier to hide.  People shouldn't have to, but they do at times need to hide it.
Logged

"I've got a bad feeling about this."

every good guy in any of the Star Wars movies.





[url=http://dragcave.net/vi
darashand
Adept Member
*****
*
*
Last Login:August 28, 2011, 11:46:42 am
United States United States

Religion: Celtic/Germanic Heathenry
TCN ID: darashand
Posts: 1222

Gravatar

Fate favors the Fearless.

Blog entries (0)



Ignore
« Reply #78: November 17, 2010, 04:12:01 pm »

I've watched this thread and its zombie resurrection and find it interesting that there is very little separating out based on whether one is dealing with an orientation issue (GLB) or an identity issue (transgender).  I have often felt that the two get lumped together inappropriately. 

Absolutely, yes.  I think you are right in saying that these issues are quite different in handling.  As much as I don't want to admit it, I think it would be hard for me to cope with having a transgendered child, not because of the fact, but because of the teasing and negativity coming from others.  It does not mean that I would love my child less, it's just that I would have a hard time coping with the comments of others.  But you never know until you are in the situation.  I know that I would buy my child the clothes and makeup that they desire, but to see the actual transformation...I might be a little uneasy at first, but as long as I know my kid is happy then so am I. 
Logged

The only people for me are the mad ones. The ones who are mad to love, mad to talk, mad to be saved. The ones who never yawn or say a commonplace thing, but burn, burn, burn like fabulous yellow Roman candles exploding like spiders across the stars." -Jack Kerouac
Aster Breo
SIG Coordinator
Staff
Grand Adept Member
***
Last Login:January 29, 2013, 09:32:22 pm
United States United States

Religion: Feral Brighideach
TCN ID: Aster Breo
Posts: 5260


Avatar byJuni & Dania

Blog entries (0)


« Reply #79: November 17, 2010, 04:30:12 pm »


Ya know, it's funny.  I used to do volunteer advocacy training for the local PFLAG chapter, I've spoken at their national conference, and I used to work for another GLBT organization, and it's NEVER occurred to me to look into their resources for myself and my husband (as parents of GLBT adult children). 

I think it's probably because this isn't something we feel we need "support" about.  Or something like that.
Logged

"The single biggest problem with communication is the illusion that it has taken place."  ~ George Bernard Shaw
HeartShadow - Cutethulhu
Assistant Board Coordinator
Senior Staff
Grand Adept Member
****
Last Login:April 15, 2013, 06:53:07 pm
United States United States

Religion: FlameKeeper
TCN ID: GenevieveWood
Posts: 8627


I am the Pirate Teddybear!

Blog entries (0)

WWW
« Reply #80: November 17, 2010, 08:12:33 pm »

Absolutely, yes.  I think you are right in saying that these issues are quite different in handling.  As much as I don't want to admit it, I think it would be hard for me to cope with having a transgendered child, not because of the fact, but because of the teasing and negativity coming from others.  It does not mean that I would love my child less, it's just that I would have a hard time coping with the comments of others.  But you never know until you are in the situation.  I know that I would buy my child the clothes and makeup that they desire, but to see the actual transformation...I might be a little uneasy at first, but as long as I know my kid is happy then so am I. 

I think there's also a level of theoretical about it - I mean, if my son IS transgendered (really can't see it, but y'know) that's very different than a theoretical "I'd be okay if".

I mean, sure, I hope that I would be supportive of whoever he turned into.  Heck, I've got him in ballet - and he loves it!  (and tap.  did you know there are shoes that make NOISE?)  But .. when you get into the stuff which hits younger and hits identity harder, it IS harder on the parents and harder to figure out.

If my son wanted to be a girl, I'd just be baffled.  Not unsupportive, I HOPE .. but ... makes brain hurty just to THINK of!
Logged




FlameKeeping website: http://www.flamekeeping.org
SunflowerP
Staff
Grand Adept Member
***
Last Login:October 15, 2019, 07:59:18 pm
Canada Canada

Religion: Eclectic Wicca-compatible religious Witch (Libertarian Witchcraft)
TCN ID: SunflowerP
Posts: 5485


Blog entries (0)

WWW
« Reply #81: November 17, 2010, 11:39:12 pm »

I've watched this thread and its zombie resurrection and find it interesting that there is very little separating out based on whether one is dealing with an orientation issue (GLB) or an identity issue (transgender).
I've been noticing that too - it didn't seem as striking in the thread's earlier incarnation (which could be that I'm farther ahead on my learning curve rather than anything about the convo per se), but it's been making me twitch a bit this time around.  I was considering saying something as I clicked the button for the next page... and lo, you already had!  Thanks.

Sunflower
Logged

Don't teach your grandmother to suck eggs!
I do so have a life.  I just live part of it online.
“Selfishness is not living as one wishes to live, it is asking others
to live as one wishes to live.” - Oscar Wilde
My blog "If You Ain't Makin' Waves, You Ain't Kickin' Hard Enough", at Dreamwidth and LJ
Dark Midnight
High Adept Member
******
Last Login:July 05, 2011, 01:47:57 am
United Kingdom United Kingdom

Religion: Religious Crystal Witch and FlameKeeper
Posts: 3079


1 beautiful soul is worth a thousand pretty faces!

Blog entries (0)

Sharon-Anne Bateman


Ignore
« Reply #82: November 18, 2010, 02:41:14 am »

I've watched this thread and its zombie resurrection and find it interesting that there is very little separating out based on whether one is dealing with an orientation issue (GLB) or an identity issue (transgender). 

I was thinking about this a lot over the last few days and I have kind of reached a point where:- if Elizabeth turned out to be a lesbian, I would be absolutely fine with it, but I think that transgender is a lot more complex an issue for all concerned. I have a couple of friends that are going through the transgender operation proccess at the moment. One is on her final operation, so she has been a she for a while, and the other is just getting onto the waiting list for the first op, so he is just starting it all. I have watched him struggling with everything-work, family, friends, himself etc. and I hate the thought of Elizabeth hurting and being hurt in the ways that I have seen, mainly because there would be very little that I could do to help. I know that I would still love her and support her, no matter what her choices may be, but I don't think that any normal parent would wish to see their child in that kind of emotional pain.

Like I said, no easy answer to this one.
Logged

Never forget that it is MY life, no-one else's!

"Payback? Yes, I think so!"

"I seem to exist in a very pretty slice of Hell- Hello? Is there anyone else here?"
SunflowerP
Staff
Grand Adept Member
***
Last Login:October 15, 2019, 07:59:18 pm
Canada Canada

Religion: Eclectic Wicca-compatible religious Witch (Libertarian Witchcraft)
TCN ID: SunflowerP
Posts: 5485


Blog entries (0)

WWW
« Reply #83: November 19, 2010, 12:34:16 am »

so she has been a she for a while
Does your friend herself identify as having "been a he" before, and only being a "she" more recently?  If so, your phrasing is fine, because it reflects her description of her own experience.  But the overwhelming majority of the trans folk of my acquaintance/e-quaintance maintain that they have always been women (or men, in the case of trans men); had they actually been the sex/gender they were assigned at birth, they wouldn't be trans.

Sunflower
Logged

Don't teach your grandmother to suck eggs!
I do so have a life.  I just live part of it online.
“Selfishness is not living as one wishes to live, it is asking others
to live as one wishes to live.” - Oscar Wilde
My blog "If You Ain't Makin' Waves, You Ain't Kickin' Hard Enough", at Dreamwidth and LJ
Aster Breo
SIG Coordinator
Staff
Grand Adept Member
***
Last Login:January 29, 2013, 09:32:22 pm
United States United States

Religion: Feral Brighideach
TCN ID: Aster Breo
Posts: 5260


Avatar byJuni & Dania

Blog entries (0)


« Reply #84: November 19, 2010, 01:53:13 am »

I've been noticing that too - it didn't seem as striking in the thread's earlier incarnation (which could be that I'm farther ahead on my learning curve rather than anything about the convo per se), but it's been making me twitch a bit this time around. 

I almost didn't post this, because I'm afraid asking this question will somehow make me sound like one of the bad guys.  But I'm on a new kick of non-self-censoring, so here goes.   Cheesy

What is making you twitch about the lack of "separating out based on whether one is dealing with an orientation issue (GLB) or an identity issue (transgender)"?

Is it that it seems that people are lumping two different issues together, when they shouldn't be?  Or that people are focusing on one issue and ignoring the other?  Or something else?

I think I'm confused because the original question was:  "what would you do if your children were GLBT?"  And, for me, the answer is pretty much the same.  Both my kids identify as bi (actually, I'm not sure if my younger daughter currently identifies as bi or as lesbian).  We support them.  If one or both of them was transgendered, my answer would also be "we support them."  I understand that there are vastly different issues involved, requiring different *kinds* of support.  But that doesn't change my answer.

So I'm not sure why you're twitching.  Could you explain, please?  It troubles me when I feel like I'm missing something obvious.   Smiley

~ Aster
Logged

"The single biggest problem with communication is the illusion that it has taken place."  ~ George Bernard Shaw
Dark Midnight
High Adept Member
******
Last Login:July 05, 2011, 01:47:57 am
United Kingdom United Kingdom

Religion: Religious Crystal Witch and FlameKeeper
Posts: 3079


1 beautiful soul is worth a thousand pretty faces!

Blog entries (0)

Sharon-Anne Bateman


Ignore
« Reply #85: November 19, 2010, 02:31:36 am »

Does your friend herself identify as having "been a he" before, and only being a "she" more recently?  If so, your phrasing is fine, because it reflects her description of her own experience.  But the overwhelming majority of the trans folk of my acquaintance/e-quaintance maintain that they have always been women (or men, in the case of trans men); had they actually been the sex/gender they were assigned at birth, they wouldn't be trans.

Sunflower

She was raised very strict Catholic and said to me that as a child, she was a he. It's just as she got older, she began to understand herself more and to realise that she was a she, not a he.
Logged

Never forget that it is MY life, no-one else's!

"Payback? Yes, I think so!"

"I seem to exist in a very pretty slice of Hell- Hello? Is there anyone else here?"
SunflowerP
Staff
Grand Adept Member
***
Last Login:October 15, 2019, 07:59:18 pm
Canada Canada

Religion: Eclectic Wicca-compatible religious Witch (Libertarian Witchcraft)
TCN ID: SunflowerP
Posts: 5485


Blog entries (0)

WWW
« Reply #86: November 19, 2010, 05:51:20 am »

So I'm not sure why you're twitching.  Could you explain, please?  It troubles me when I feel like I'm missing something obvious.   Smiley
I don't think it's obvious (twitching, for me, is the mental reflex when something doesn't sit quite right but it's hard to put a finger on), and as I say it could be how I perceived the thread at the beginning of the year as compared to now - I think it's that, previously, the distinctions were elided, but since the thread got revived, there's a whiff of the different sorts of queerness being conflated.  Elision isn't unreasonable, since the question was posed as a hypothetical (and <rereads OP> centred on initial reaction) and for most of those who responded is hypothetical; when someone's answer is, "I would support hir," regardless of which sort(s) of queerness are involved, the differences aren't relevant to the answer - but can become very relevant indeed if/when one goes into detail about how one would be supportive.  Conflation implies that the differences aren't relevant, period.

That hasn't happened overtly, so I can't point to it; it's just a sense of, well, twitchiness.

Help any?

Sunflower
Logged

Don't teach your grandmother to suck eggs!
I do so have a life.  I just live part of it online.
“Selfishness is not living as one wishes to live, it is asking others
to live as one wishes to live.” - Oscar Wilde
My blog "If You Ain't Makin' Waves, You Ain't Kickin' Hard Enough", at Dreamwidth and LJ
Sperran
Reserve Staff
Staff
High Adept Member
***
Last Login:October 18, 2014, 02:07:12 am
United States United States

Religion: Judaism
Posts: 2945


Adonai Echad

Blog entries (8)


« Reply #87: November 19, 2010, 07:28:29 am »


That hasn't happened overtly, so I can't point to it; it's just a sense of, well, twitchiness.

Help any?

Sunflower

Since I had the same feeling, maybe I can expand.  At least part of my response was due to the fact that the original question was "What if your kids were LGBT? <snip> What would you do if you kids were LGBT?"  A lot of the responses were along the lines of "I would support them."  While there is nothing wrong with that, and should certainly be part of the package, it is glossing over what I feel like is a specific question that should have different answers based on what issue we are dealing with. 

There *should* be a different response to issues of sexual orientation vs gender identity because they are dealing with completely different issues.  Having a non-hetereosexual orientation simply doesn't have as far reaching and complex implications for ones life as issues with gender identity.  This is not just something that has come up in this thread, but something that has bothered me in advocacy groups.  I understand that LGBT people often band together so they will have a bigger voice, but it bugs me because it furthers the idea that these concepts are closely related when they aren't.  Sexual orientation and gender identity are two completely orthogonal concepts...and mushing them all together just causes more confusion and difficulties when dealing with the general public.  We already have enough problems because people assume that being a gay man somehow makes one part woman, or that being lesbian makes you manly. 

Essentially, I feel like the question should have been answered as separate issues because:

1.  Life can be difficult for lesbian/gay/bi folks, but they don't face a fraction of the hatred and discrimination in our society that trans folks face (at least in my experience). 
2.   There is a host of physical issues that go along with being transgender that aren't relevant to being gay/lesbian/bi...often times starting at birth because a good portion of transgender people are born with some sort of intersex condition.  We are looking at serious surgery as an infant/young child. 
3.  Even under the best of circumstances, the life changes and adjustments for a trans person are simply much more far reaching than being lesbian/gay/bi.  There is a huge difference between "Did you hear that Andrew is gay?" and "Did you hear that Andrew is now Katie?"  Because of our binary focus on gender in this society, a person changing gender has huge implications that being gay or lesbian just don't have.

Sperran (who is very tired, so is hoping this all makes sense)
Logged
mandrina
High Adept Member
******
Last Login:August 13, 2013, 11:51:25 pm
United States United States

Religion: Reclaiming practice, still trying to identify diety, but have some ideas
Posts: 3546


Blog entries (0)



Ignore
« Reply #88: November 19, 2010, 09:11:50 am »

Since I had the same feeling, maybe I can expand.  At least part of my response was due to the fact that the original question was "What if your kids were LGBT? <snip> What would you do if you kids were LGBT?"  A lot of the responses were along the lines of "I would support them."  While there is nothing wrong with that, and should certainly be part of the package, it is glossing over what I feel like is a specific question that should have different answers based on what issue we are dealing with. 

There *should* be a different response to issues of sexual orientation vs gender identity because they are dealing with completely different issues.  Having a non-hetereosexual orientation simply doesn't have as far reaching and complex implications for ones life as issues with gender identity.  This is not just something that has come up in this thread, but something that has bothered me in advocacy groups.  I understand that LGBT people often band together so they will have a bigger voice, but it bugs me because it furthers the idea that these concepts are closely related when they aren't.  Sexual orientation and gender identity are two completely orthogonal concepts...and mushing them all together just causes more confusion and difficulties when dealing with the general public.  We already have enough problems because people assume that being a gay man somehow makes one part woman, or that being lesbian makes you manly. 

Essentially, I feel like the question should have been answered as separate issues because:

1.  Life can be difficult for lesbian/gay/bi folks, but they don't face a fraction of the hatred and discrimination in our society that trans folks face (at least in my experience). 
2.   There is a host of physical issues that go along with being transgender that aren't relevant to being gay/lesbian/bi...often times starting at birth because a good portion of transgender people are born with some sort of intersex condition.  We are looking at serious surgery as an infant/young child. 
3.  Even under the best of circumstances, the life changes and adjustments for a trans person are simply much more far reaching than being lesbian/gay/bi.  There is a huge difference between "Did you hear that Andrew is gay?" and "Did you hear that Andrew is now Katie?"  Because of our binary focus on gender in this society, a person changing gender has huge implications that being gay or lesbian just don't have.

Sperran (who is very tired, so is hoping this all makes sense)

And for Victor, who already has issues, being gay would add to them, but nothing like becoming Victoria would add to them.  Whereas Tia, who doesn't have other issues, is much better able to deal with the smaller issues that come with being gay, and the much larger issues that come with becoming TOdd.  I hope I would be supportive of either one, in whichever situation they were in.   Although I can say right now from what I see in the teen years of them both, neither is gay.  Maybe Bi, but not gay.
Logged

"I've got a bad feeling about this."

every good guy in any of the Star Wars movies.





[url=http://dragcave.net/vi
Darkhawk
Chief Mux Wizard
Staff
Adept Member
***
*
Last Login:September 13, 2019, 12:41:51 am
United States United States

Religion: Kemetic Feri Discordian
Posts: 2485

Blog entries (0)

WWW
« Reply #89: November 19, 2010, 09:37:03 am »

I understand that LGBT people often band together so they will have a bigger voice, but it bugs me because it furthers the idea that these concepts are closely related when they aren't.  Sexual orientation and gender identity are two completely orthogonal concepts...and mushing them all together just causes more confusion and difficulties when dealing with the general public.  We already have enough problems because people assume that being a gay man somehow makes one part woman, or that being lesbian makes you manly. 

It's not really 'so they will have a bigger voice', it's a result of history.  As I understand it, some of the seminal figures in the gay rights movement - such as the people involved in Stonewall - were trans women.  Back when both groups were heavily stigmatised, the borders between them were a lot less clear, and while a lot of, say, drag queens were gay men, a lot of them were also trans women trying to make the best life for themselves that they could at the time.

As gayness got more "normal" and transness remained extremely marginalised, there has been a certain amount of, hrrr, social purification in the movement.  A certain subset of gay rights activists treat trans people as interlopers trying to hitchhike on the movement, rather than there from the beginning, and people believe them, because there's been this systematic cleansing and de-transing of the social history.  The ones that don't come out and say that they're a cis gay movement (the ones that do are often strictly a gay movement, and are dubious about bisexuals as well; the ones I know about are also gay men, and do not really include lesbians either) often sort of forget to consider trans folks.  As a result of this, a lot of trans people are trying to figure out how to do advocacy that doesn't depend on the historical ties with the queer community.

This connection persists because it's still a lot easier to come out as gay than it is to come out as trans, so a lot of straight or bi trans folk start out in the queer community prior to transition.  And what to do with those people after transition is one of the major screaming fits that I've observed - consider the Michigan Women's Folk Festival, which has a supposedly "women-only" policy that allows trans men in and bars trans women from attendance.

Of course, queer trans folks (like my sister) are completely screwed over by this situation.  THe fundie gay groups don't want her because she's trans; if they respect the trans-ness, well, she's married to a woman, and out of the scope of the consideration the cis gay guys want to give the universe; if they don't respect the trans-ness, well, she's married to a woman, so she's straight and should go away.
Logged

Donor Ad: Become a Silver or Gold Donor to get your ad here.

Tags:
Pages: 1 ... 4 5 [6] 7   Go Up
  Add bookmark  |  Print  
 
Jump to:  
  Portal   Forum   Help Rules Search Chat (Mux) Articles Login Register   *

* Share this topic...
In a forum
(BBCode)
In a site/blog
(HTML)


Related Topics
Subject Started by Replies Views Last post
The goat kids are arriving!
Pets
Aasha 10 2498 Last post May 25, 2007, 01:44:09 pm
by Wanderer894
Lying to your kids
Family Life
thain 8 2728 Last post August 25, 2009, 03:39:18 pm
by Astralis
Savage says autistic kids just brats. « 1 2 3 4 »
Non-Religious News
Sperran 54 8258 Last post August 03, 2008, 09:36:36 pm
by Sperran
Web Browser Designed for Autistic Kids
Computers and the Internet
Sperran 1 818 Last post July 28, 2008, 01:27:14 pm
by wisdomsbane
How old should your kids be before they are exposed to a ritual setting?
Family Life
Hufflee 5 2086 Last post October 24, 2008, 10:12:03 pm
by Sperran
EU Cookie Notice: This site uses cookies. By using this site you consent to their use.


Powered by MySQL Powered by PHP Powered by SMF 1.1.21 | SMF © 2006-2008, Simple Machines
TinyPortal v0.9.8 © Bloc
Valid XHTML 1.0! Valid CSS!
Page created in 0.062 seconds with 56 queries.