The Cauldron: A Pagan Forum (Archive Board)
October 13, 2019, 08:57:37 pm *
Welcome, Guest. Please login or register.

Login with username, password and session length
News: This is our Read Only Archive Board (closed to posting July 2011). Join our new vBulletin board!
 
  Portal   Forum   Help Rules Search Chat (Mux) Articles Login Register   *

Welcome, Guest. Please login or register.
October 13, 2019, 08:57:37 pm

Login with username, password and session length
Donate!
The Cauldron's server is expensive and requires monthly payments. Please become a Bronze, Silver or Gold Donor if you can. Donations are needed every month. Without member support, we can't afford the server.
TC Staff
Important Information about this Archive Board
This message board is The Cauldron: A Pagan Forum's SMF Archive Board. It is closed to new memberships and to posting, but there are over 250,000 messages here that you can still search and read -- many full of interesting and useful information. (This board was open from February 2007 through June 2011).

Our new vBulletin discussion board is located at http://www.ecauldron.com/forum/ -- if you would like to participate in discussions like those you see here, please visit our new vBulletin message board, register an account and join in our discussions. We hope you will find the information in this message archive useful and will consider joining us on our new board.
Pages: [1] 2   Go Down
  Add bookmark  |  Print  
Author Topic: deities and spells  (Read 5457 times)
Ghost Queen
Journeyman
***
Last Login:April 11, 2010, 08:10:46 pm
Ecuador Ecuador

Religion: Ecclectic Polytheistic Pagan
Posts: 228


At the Edge of Enigma, the Gatekeeper waits...

Blog entries (0)

WWW

Ignore
« Topic Start: November 24, 2008, 04:32:23 pm »

When you are looking up spells, and find one with a different god or goddess than the ones you worship, is it ok to change the names so it's to your gods instead?

In other words, is it ok to do a spell with the name of a deity other than the one you worship? And if you don't know which deity to worship, is doing a spell in a deity's name bind you to him/her so that he/she has to be the one you worship from then on? Like, wouldn't it be an insult to consult that deity for just one ritual/spell and then ignore him/her?
Logged

The meaning of life is to give life meaning
Go too fast, move too slow
Restore the balance between thinking and feeling
Open up and let it flow

-Ayreon 01011001

Welcome, Guest!
You will need to register and/or login to participate in our discussions.

Read our Rules and Policies and the Quoting Guidelines.

Help Fund Our Server? Donate to Lyricfox's Cancer Fund?

Melamphoros
Staff
Grand Adept Member
***
Last Login:March 28, 2015, 11:01:26 pm
United States United States

Religion: Informed Eclectic with Hellenic Overtones
TCN ID: Melamphoros
Posts: 13621


Kiss My Scythe

Blog entries (0)


« Reply #1: November 24, 2008, 04:42:36 pm »

When you are looking up spells, and find one with a different god or goddess than the ones you worship, is it ok to change the names so it's to your gods instead?

In other words, is it ok to do a spell with the name of a deity other than the one you worship? And if you don't know which deity to worship, is doing a spell in a deity's name bind you to him/her so that he/she has to be the one you worship from then on? Like, wouldn't it be an insult to consult that deity for just one ritual/spell and then ignore him/her?

I think it's bad to think of the gods as nothing more than spell components, which is what you're describing.  If you must include a deity in a spell, I suggest one you already follow.  Preferably one you're already on good terms with.
Logged



Jesus saves, Allah forgives, Cthulhu thinks you will make a great sandwich.
My Spiritual Blog
Ghost Queen
Journeyman
***
Last Login:April 11, 2010, 08:10:46 pm
Ecuador Ecuador

Religion: Ecclectic Polytheistic Pagan
Posts: 228


At the Edge of Enigma, the Gatekeeper waits...

Blog entries (0)

WWW

Ignore
« Reply #2: November 24, 2008, 04:46:13 pm »

Ok, that's what I thought. But it's ok to substitute your deity for the one originally listed in the spell? It's not like certain spells only work with certain deities or anything, is it?
Logged

The meaning of life is to give life meaning
Go too fast, move too slow
Restore the balance between thinking and feeling
Open up and let it flow

-Ayreon 01011001
Melamphoros
Staff
Grand Adept Member
***
Last Login:March 28, 2015, 11:01:26 pm
United States United States

Religion: Informed Eclectic with Hellenic Overtones
TCN ID: Melamphoros
Posts: 13621


Kiss My Scythe

Blog entries (0)


« Reply #3: November 24, 2008, 05:00:21 pm »

Ok, that's what I thought. But it's ok to substitute your deity for the one originally listed in the spell? It's not like certain spells only work with certain deities or anything, is it?

If you would like help from your deity, I don't see why you can't switch them.
Logged



Jesus saves, Allah forgives, Cthulhu thinks you will make a great sandwich.
My Spiritual Blog
HeartShadow - Cutethulhu
Assistant Board Coordinator
Senior Staff
Grand Adept Member
****
Last Login:April 15, 2013, 06:53:07 pm
United States United States

Religion: FlameKeeper
TCN ID: GenevieveWood
Posts: 8627


I am the Pirate Teddybear!

Blog entries (0)

WWW
« Reply #4: November 24, 2008, 06:19:18 pm »

Ok, that's what I thought. But it's ok to substitute your deity for the one originally listed in the spell? It's not like certain spells only work with certain deities or anything, is it?

Modern spells, I don't see a problem as long as you do so intelligently - don't pray to a war-god for peace just because you know the war god!  They're not all interchangeable.

The more you're doing things as they were done in the past, though, the more I'd be careful about switching gods - they might have had bad relations with the culture you're taking the spell from!
Logged




FlameKeeping website: http://www.flamekeeping.org
RandallS
Co-Host
Administrator
Grand Adept Member
*****
Last Login:September 17, 2019, 11:13:29 am
United States United States

Religion: Hellenic Pagan
TCN ID: ADMIN
Posts: 17181


Blog entries (0)


« Reply #5: November 24, 2008, 06:20:18 pm »

If you would like help from your deity, I don't see why you can't switch them.

Provided your deity would be interested in the spell. Substituting the name of a Storm God for a God of Wealth in a "get money" spell would probably not be very effective.
Logged

Randall
RetroRoleplaying [Blog - Forum] -- Out Of Print & Out Of Style Tabletop Roleplaying Games
Software Gadgets Blog -- Interesting Software, Mostly Free
Cheap Web Hosting -- Find an Affordable Web Host
Zahirah
Journeyman
***
Last Login:November 20, 2012, 03:47:07 pm
United States United States

Religion: Discordian Kemetic Orthodox
TCN ID: zahirah
Posts: 153


Famous Last Words: What Duck?

Blog entries (0)

DixieJo719
WWW

Ignore
« Reply #6: November 24, 2008, 06:28:04 pm »

When you are looking up spells, and find one with a different god or goddess than the ones you worship, is it ok to change the names so it's to your gods instead?

I would rather substitute the Name of a deity I work with regularly, than use the Name of a deity I've no connection to.  To use a work metaphor, it'd be like contacting a comparably-tasked coworker in my own department for assistance over cold-calling an employee of a different company.  I don't think it would necessarily bind you to the other deity, but it would put you on Their radar.  They might come a'calling someday for you to return Their favor.  Or They might just become annoyed, grant your wish, and prefer that you not do that again.

Although, I would instead use the original spell as inspiration to write one of my own, personalize it towards the Name of my choosing and Their context.  One "goddess of love" isn't the same as another "goddess of love", and therefore, just swapping out names may be completely incorrect and possibly insulting.
Logged

"If people never did silly things, nothing intelligent would ever get done."
- Ludwig Wittgenstein, Austrian philosopher (1889 - 1951)
catja6
Board Staff
Staff
Adept Member
***
Last Login:February 29, 2016, 11:06:03 pm
Canada Canada

Religion: Hellenic Pagan
Posts: 1119


Blog entries (0)


« Reply #7: November 24, 2008, 07:05:39 pm »



There are a number of folk spells that can be shown to have swapped out older gods for new ones, or added the new god to the mix, so the practice is very, very well-attested in history.  One of the defining features of folk magic -- as opposed to ceremonial magic -- is that it's highly adaptable to whatever the dominant religious system happens to be.   

Ceremonial magic systems are highly formalized and heavily intertwined with a particular religious/spiritual system (in the west, usually mystical Judaism (Kabbalah) or various forms of esoteric Christianity), so swapping gods is tougher.  But folk magic tends to be practical and results-based, rather than about spiritual development, and the focus is not upon communing with the Divine, but on achieving some kind of practical, real-world end, sometimes with the assistance of a suitable divinity/spirit/supernatural helper.  And so the emphasis will be on what *works*, rather than what is doctrinally "correct."

This is especially true for things like, say, magical uses of herbs, which, in many cases, are often extensions of their uses in folk medicine -- and when that folk usage happens to be based on some real quality that plant possesses, it's even more likely that the spells using that plant will adapt in whatever way is necessary  to the current culture.  Like, garlic has been used since ancient times in many cultures to ward off evil, an extension of the belief in folk medicine that it prevented disease.  And since garlic does in fact have antibiotic and anti-fungal qualities, it's no surprise that garlic protection spells stuck around. 

So, there's nothing intrinsically "wrong" about swapping gods in a spell, especially if it's a folk spell where a deity is being asked to help with X.  (Ceremonial magic spells are more problematic, because they're often SO intertwined with a specific religious system, and designed to put one in communion with *that particular* divinity/spirit/energy.)  Like, I see no reason not to take, say, a medieval spell to get a husband that involves a prayer to St. Catherine, and replace that prayer with one to Aphrodite or Hera, as goddesses who would be sympathetic to that quest (arguably more sympathetic than a virgin martyr, but that's just an example of the way folk magic uses what's available).  However, I'd also think about some of the spell's other components:  the St. Catherine version of the spell was to be performed on St. Catherine's Day, November 30; if I were to adapt that, I'd choose a day sacred to Aphrodite or Hera, like the date of an ancient festival for one of them, or somesuch. 

Speaking of saints, there are a number of folk magic spells involving saints that have analogues in pre-Christian folk magic.  It's not necessarily that *that particular* spell hung on with a name-change, though as I said, there are plenty of examples of just that.  it's more like, people's basic needs didn't change much, and often relied upon tried and true methods and techniques for meeting those needs -- what did change was just the supernatural beings considered most efficacious for helping you meet those needs.  Folk magic just tended to absorb the new stuff into a pre-existing set of practices, rather than completely redo the whole system.

ETA -- hit post too soon:

From a respect-for-gods standpoint, I personally wouldn't go around invoking some god during the course of a magic spell, if I've never paid any attention to them before.  If i knew I wanted to petition deity X in the course of a spell, i'd make an offering well beforehand, just so that deity's first contact with me isn't "Gimme gimme!"  Seems more polite. 
« Last Edit: November 24, 2008, 07:09:49 pm by catja6 » Logged
Ghost Queen
Journeyman
***
Last Login:April 11, 2010, 08:10:46 pm
Ecuador Ecuador

Religion: Ecclectic Polytheistic Pagan
Posts: 228


At the Edge of Enigma, the Gatekeeper waits...

Blog entries (0)

WWW

Ignore
« Reply #8: November 24, 2008, 07:32:07 pm »

So can you have a spell without calling on a deity?
Logged

The meaning of life is to give life meaning
Go too fast, move too slow
Restore the balance between thinking and feeling
Open up and let it flow

-Ayreon 01011001
Melamphoros
Staff
Grand Adept Member
***
Last Login:March 28, 2015, 11:01:26 pm
United States United States

Religion: Informed Eclectic with Hellenic Overtones
TCN ID: Melamphoros
Posts: 13621


Kiss My Scythe

Blog entries (0)


« Reply #9: November 24, 2008, 07:36:38 pm »

So can you have a spell without calling on a deity?

Yes
Logged



Jesus saves, Allah forgives, Cthulhu thinks you will make a great sandwich.
My Spiritual Blog
Ghost Queen
Journeyman
***
Last Login:April 11, 2010, 08:10:46 pm
Ecuador Ecuador

Religion: Ecclectic Polytheistic Pagan
Posts: 228


At the Edge of Enigma, the Gatekeeper waits...

Blog entries (0)

WWW

Ignore
« Reply #10: November 24, 2008, 07:54:42 pm »

Okay, that's good to know. I don't really know which deities I want to worship yet, so I don't really feel comfortable calling on any of them yet. And I definitely don't want to insult any of them. But I've been interested in learning about spells for a long time.

Another question: is it absolutely necessary to cast a circle first? I haven't quite mastered that yet.
Logged

The meaning of life is to give life meaning
Go too fast, move too slow
Restore the balance between thinking and feeling
Open up and let it flow

-Ayreon 01011001
HeartShadow - Cutethulhu
Assistant Board Coordinator
Senior Staff
Grand Adept Member
****
Last Login:April 15, 2013, 06:53:07 pm
United States United States

Religion: FlameKeeper
TCN ID: GenevieveWood
Posts: 8627


I am the Pirate Teddybear!

Blog entries (0)

WWW
« Reply #11: November 24, 2008, 07:59:55 pm »


Ghost Queen, please leave in the quote code like I have above so we can trace the conversation.  Thank you.
Logged




FlameKeeping website: http://www.flamekeeping.org
joybishoptx
Senior Newbie
*
Last Login:November 24, 2008, 08:30:55 pm
United States United States

Religion: eclectic wiccan
Posts: 14


Blog entries (0)



Ignore
« Reply #12: November 24, 2008, 08:09:17 pm »

Okay, that's good to know. I don't really know which deities I want to worship yet, so I don't really feel comfortable calling on any of them yet. And I definitely don't want to insult any of them. But I've been interested in learning about spells for a long time.

Another question: is it absolutely necessary to cast a circle first? I haven't quite mastered that yet.
I'm just getting comfortable with a god/goddess that I would call my "regular". I decided it would be something I would have to search out and follow my intuition on, so I didn't want to rush it. I would simply say "god" or "goddess" or "divine mother" or "divine father." Kind of general but I'm still learning.
As for casting a circle, one thing that REALLY helped me was focusing on meditation. I spent every night meditating. If I had a spare five or ten quiet minutes, I would meditate. Meditating allowed me to really get in touch with my own personal power. Once I was able to control my own personal power, I was better able to fell and control power outside of myself, if that makes sense. I still meditate, a lot. Not only does it keep me constantly in tune with my own power, it is very interesting to find the images and ideas that my mind focuses on during meditation. Just my experience. I'm sure everyone is different.
Logged

Joy
catja6
Board Staff
Staff
Adept Member
***
Last Login:February 29, 2016, 11:06:03 pm
Canada Canada

Religion: Hellenic Pagan
Posts: 1119


Blog entries (0)


« Reply #13: November 24, 2008, 08:13:33 pm »

Okay, that's good to know. I don't really know which deities I want to worship yet, so I don't really feel comfortable calling on any of them yet. And I definitely don't want to insult any of them. But I've been interested in learning about spells for a long time.

Another question: is it absolutely necessary to cast a circle first? I haven't quite mastered that yet.

There are many, many spells that don't directly involve deities; in many folk magic systems, the power is considered to be located in the specific ingredients, and your performance of the ritual is what "releases" the power.  Whether deities are called upon to add juice, as it were, to the spell, depends a lot on when, where and from whom the spells were being recorded.  Remember, the body of folk magic isn't usually formally integrated into a religious/spiritual system the way ceremonial magic is; there are exceptions of course, but it tends to be in very specific communities or among specific individuals -- it's more generally true to say the folk magic *can* work within the dominant religious system, but it doesn't *have* to.  Pious individuals who see their magic power as coming from God(s), or magic collected in a region where a very specific religious attitude towards magic is dominant (i.e., Spiritual churches), often supply many of the folk spells that invoke deities.  But there are also many spells that don't.

If you're looking for some info on this folk magic, check out the Lucky Mojo website, which discusses Hoodoo (American, esp. African-American, folk magic), especially the "Hoodoo in Theory and Practice" section.

http://www.luckymojo.com/

And as for casting a circle, that depends entirely on what system you're following.  The practice of circle casting for magic is primarily a Wiccan thing, which they cribbed from ceremonial magic.  Lots of magical traditions *don'* involve circle-casting.  
Logged
joybishoptx
Senior Newbie
*
Last Login:November 24, 2008, 08:30:55 pm
United States United States

Religion: eclectic wiccan
Posts: 14


Blog entries (0)



Ignore
« Reply #14: November 24, 2008, 08:21:10 pm »

There are many, many spells that don't directly involve deities; in many folk magic systems, the power is considered to be located in the specific ingredients, and your performance of the ritual is what "releases" the power.

I completely agree with this. My grandmother was a Catholic, but she definitely utilized much folk magic. She never called it that, and clearly the power of what she was doing came from the ingredients and her intent. I can remember countless "rules" for when she made things: there were certain things she cooked up during thunderstorms, certain things for foggy mornings, certain things for if the figs fell off the tree early. She really had quite a system. And if you would have ever suggested to her she was practicing "witchcraft" she would have crossed herself and said some Hail Mary's for you. I like the purity and simplicity of folk magic, even though I'm sure it can be much more complex than what my grandmother did. But I also like the structure of ceremonial magic. But I'm still learning. Can you do both folk and ceremonial magic?
Logged

Joy

Donor Ad: Become a Silver or Gold Donor to get your ad here.

Tags:
Pages: [1] 2   Go Up
  Add bookmark  |  Print  
 
Jump to:  
  Portal   Forum   Help Rules Search Chat (Mux) Articles Login Register   *

* Share this topic...
In a forum
(BBCode)
In a site/blog
(HTML)


Related Topics
Subject Started by Replies Views Last post
Medieval Spells
Magic and the Occult for Beginners
guineith 14 10413 Last post November 15, 2007, 09:04:45 pm
by Cent
Releasing Spells « 1 2 »
Magic and the Occult for Beginners
Mithril 29 9934 Last post October 03, 2007, 06:29:43 pm
by Aster Breo
Spells on New Moon?
Magic and the Occult for Beginners
Silberschein 6 2947 Last post November 09, 2007, 12:48:56 pm
by Silberschein
pet protection spells « 1 2 »
Pets
rose 26 5945 Last post April 29, 2008, 10:05:46 am
by rose
Spells and Rhyme « 1 2 3 4 »
Magic and the Occult for Beginners
Journey 46 26717 Last post January 21, 2009, 11:07:51 pm
by SunflowerP
EU Cookie Notice: This site uses cookies. By using this site you consent to their use.


Powered by MySQL Powered by PHP Powered by SMF 1.1.21 | SMF © 2006-2008, Simple Machines
TinyPortal v0.9.8 © Bloc
Valid XHTML 1.0! Valid CSS!
Page created in 0.055 seconds with 47 queries.