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Author Topic: research for book  (Read 13735 times)
disillusioned
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« Reply #15: April 18, 2007, 09:57:51 am »

...I know this is off topic but that sounds frickin hilarious. 

I'm glad I'm not the only one who thought that!
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« Reply #16: April 18, 2007, 03:59:50 pm »

Actually some Chaos magic deliberately aims to be ooky and spooky (in order to trip the right emotions in the caster), so some online rituals in Chaos magic might be suitable for the original poster.  I recall one particularly whacky ritual (Id love to know if *anyone* tried it.  ever) which seems to involve gettimng everyone naked in the pouring rain, throwing blood about, and then running off with peoples clothes/ money.  Or possibly I've mixed up two rituals in my head.
I've looked up some of this Chaos Magic and was wondering if they were magic practitioners without religion bases. or am I completely wrong? 
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« Reply #17: April 18, 2007, 05:54:41 pm »

I've looked up some of this Chaos Magic and was wondering if they were magic practitioners without religion bases. or am I completely wrong? 

Brandyewine,

One thing you might want to keep in mind is that there are a lot of magic practioners who do magic without a religious framework. A person really doesn't need a religious basis for magic.
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« Reply #18: April 18, 2007, 06:06:15 pm »

I've looked up some of this Chaos Magic and was wondering if they were magic practitioners without religion bases. or am I completely wrong? 

Some are non-religious. Others aren't.  Magic is independent of religion. One can be of any religion (or no religion) and practice magic. Wicca is one of the few religions that incorporates actual magic into its religious practices.
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« Reply #19: April 18, 2007, 06:48:29 pm »

I've looked up some of this Chaos Magic and was wondering if they were magic practitioners without religion bases. or am I completely wrong? 

Chaos magick is without a religious base in that the meta paradigm is without a religious basis.  One of the key aphorisms is that 'nothing is true, and everything is permitted', and the central dogma of Chaos is that belief is a tool.  You deliberately change your beliefs to perform set tasks.  Consistency of belief over time isn't sought.  (So if I want to heal one day, maybe I'll invoke Christian angels, having a dopted a Christian mind set, but maybe next week I want to curse someone into the ground, and deliberately become an amoral demonologist, etc etc).  So Chaos is without a religious basis, but practitioners may at times find themselves *temporarily* adopting a religious theory/ base.

So you're right, but it's complicated. Smiley
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« Reply #20: April 18, 2007, 08:10:34 pm »

Chaos magick is without a religious base in that the meta paradigm is without a religious basis.  One of the key aphorisms is that 'nothing is true, and everything is permitted', and the central dogma of Chaos is that belief is a tool.  You deliberately change your beliefs to perform set tasks.  Consistency of belief over time isn't sought.  (So if I want to heal one day, maybe I'll invoke Christian angels, having a dopted a Christian mind set, but maybe next week I want to curse someone into the ground, and deliberately become an amoral demonologist, etc etc).  So Chaos is without a religious basis, but practitioners may at times find themselves *temporarily* adopting a religious theory/ base.

So you're right, but it's complicated. Smiley
This is a very reasonable explanation. I know I can use this, it will fit very well with my story. I was wondering if  anyone could tell me about some other things I've come across. (Please remember I mean no disrespect to anyone I just don't know how else to put it Undecided) as I said before I'm looking for dark stuff and you said demonologist. So can you explain why there's lots of references to black magic when researching grimoires (it made me think that they were created for that purpose). Also I came across stuff like Black Masses and Satanism, I felt like these were closely related to Christianity. (should I research this avenue or waste of time). Are these considered taboo to discuss?
I understand the concept better now that Ive heard from everyone. Was wondering wheres a good place to learn the mechanics of spells or rituals. I have all my characters abilities and beliefs outlined but still don't know a lot about the workings of actual ceremonies for stuff. Ive requested a ton of books from libraries in my area but have no clues if they will help. Kurtz's books (about 5 of them) Susan Greenwoods encyclopedia, and any book with anything close to instructions. I cant tell you all how much I appreciate you explaining the where from, I need the how, now.
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« Reply #21: April 19, 2007, 07:08:21 am »

This is a very reasonable explanation. I know I can use this, it will fit very well with my story. I was wondering if  anyone could tell me about some other things I've come across. (Please remember I mean no disrespect to anyone I just don't know how else to put it Undecided) as I said before I'm looking for dark stuff and you said demonologist. So can you explain why there's lots of references to black magic when researching grimoires (it made me think that they were created for that purpose). Also I came across stuff like Black Masses and Satanism, I felt like these were closely related to Christianity. (should I research this avenue or waste of time). Are these considered taboo to discuss?
I understand the concept better now that Ive heard from everyone. Was wondering wheres a good place to learn the mechanics of spells or rituals. I have all my characters abilities and beliefs outlined but still don't know a lot about the workings of actual ceremonies for stuff. Ive requested a ton of books from libraries in my area but have no clues if they will help. Kurtz's books (about 5 of them) Susan Greenwoods encyclopedia, and any book with anything close to instructions. I cant tell you all how much I appreciate you explaining the where from, I need the how, now.
Brandyewine

A lot of demonology is found in Ceremonial Magick, which tends to have been practiced by Christians.  I haven't concerned myself overly with the theory/theology, but basically the idea is that you're working with the blessing of God, so you can command demons.  And if the demons get a bit uppity, you can smack them down with the authority lent you.  (this is my brief version Smiley )

Black masses may or may not have been practiced - someone else could probably discuss that better than me.  However, modern Satanism (at least that of La Vey) is not the same as historical Satanism - or at least, what people traditionally believed about Satanism.  You may want to decide if all Satanism is linked in your book, if there are surviving Satanic traditions, or if its all Le Vayan in the modern times.  If you want to include any form of modern Satanism, it's worth reading the Satanic Bible (if you have money to spare).

If you want to learn more about how ceremonial magic works, I recommend Modern Magick by Donald Kraig.  It's not the be-all and end-all of Ceremonial Magic (and Id recommend reading more if you wanted to *practice*), but it's a good primer that can help understand other ceremonial works.  (For example, he pretty much makes using grimoires workable Smiley )
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« Reply #22: April 19, 2007, 11:09:51 am »

A lot of demonology is found in Ceremonial Magick, which tends to have been practiced by Christians.  I haven't concerned myself overly with the theory/theology, but basically the idea is that you're working with the blessing of God, so you can command demons.  And if the demons get a bit uppity, you can smack them down with the authority lent you.  (this is my brief version Smiley )

Black masses may or may not have been practiced - someone else could probably discuss that better than me.  However, modern Satanism (at least that of La Vey) is not the same as historical Satanism - or at least, what people traditionally believed about Satanism.  You may want to decide if all Satanism is linked in your book, if there are surviving Satanic traditions, or if its all Le Vayan in the modern times.  If you want to include any form of modern Satanism, it's worth reading the Satanic Bible (if you have money to spare).

If you want to learn more about how ceremonial magic works, I recommend Modern Magick by Donald Kraig.  It's not the be-all and end-all of Ceremonial Magic (and Id recommend reading more if you wanted to *practice*), but it's a good primer that can help understand other ceremonial works.  (For example, he pretty much makes using grimoires workable Smiley )

So is demonology considered part of everyday worship for people or is it considered part of black magic or dark arts. It sounds like its not but I'm not sure. I understand the concept of different kinds of worship, like its how empowered you feel from what ever you do that works for you??? hopefully I have this right. I'm looking up Le Vayan stuff right now.  I've tried to find Kraig's work at our libraries but they seem to keep disappearing, so I'm probably gonna have to buy it. I'm writing scenes with ceremonies so I think this will be a good book to use.
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« Reply #23: April 19, 2007, 11:20:09 am »

So is demonology considered part of everyday worship for people

Not for most of us, I think.

Quote
I've tried to find Kraig's work at our libraries but they seem to keep disappearing, so I'm probably gonna have to buy it.

Have you asked the librarians about an inter-library loan?  Also, if you live in a university town, check the university's library.  Some allow people who live in the area to check books out from them, and you never know, they might have it.

(I just checked--my local uni seems to have it...  in Russian.  But not English.  Huh.  Sometimes you get odd results, too.)
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« Reply #24: April 19, 2007, 03:31:31 pm »

Not for most of us, I think.

Have you asked the librarians about an inter-library loan?  Also, if you live in a university town, check the university's library.  Some allow people who live in the area to check books out from them, and you never know, they might have it.

(I just checked--my local uni seems to have it...  in Russian.  But not English.  Huh.  Sometimes you get odd results, too.)
Yes, that's how I found all the books so far. My library in our town had 1 book and it was never returned. Thanks for the tip about university libraries. I have a Uni in my town and they have a brand new one, so I'm heading there next. Also I think everyone would like to know I informed my librarian that they had no books on these topics and she said she was very sorry and that she would fix it by ordering enough to a "nice section". That impressed me that she was so ready to replace and build a section on these topics. So yeah!
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« Reply #25: April 19, 2007, 07:13:48 pm »

So is demonology considered part of everyday worship for people or is it considered part of black magic or dark arts.

It's generally not a part of worship. Summoning demons is generally just magic, not religion. It doesn't even work the way it does in the movies. Forcing any spirit to take physical form on the physical plane is a lot more work than it is worth. Ceremonial mages summoning demons summon them to appear on the astral plane and have a seer converse with them there. Boring to watch.
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« Reply #26: April 20, 2007, 07:21:07 am »

So is demonology considered part of everyday worship for people or is it considered part of black magic or dark arts. It sounds like its not but I'm not sure. I understand the concept of different kinds of worship, like its how empowered you feel from what ever you do that works for you???

Demonology in a ceremonial context would be along the lines of 'oy, you, I have a job I need doing' (thats not my personal take on demonology, but thats how its presented in books).  Some people may worship 'demons', but I find it unlikely.  Generally they view said entities as deities of some kind -  or possibly just archetypes they wish to emulate.

However, I've been describing magical practices (I personally am not involved in any religion), so Im not sure how your empowerment question relates to that?  I think I may be confused here, or possibly I've not been clear.  Could you tell me which part of a previous post you were responding to when you said "I understand the concept of different kinds of worship, like its how empowered you feel from what ever you do that works for you???"
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« Reply #27: April 20, 2007, 08:12:53 am »

As a writer, I must say that's quite a complicated plot!  I would try to simplify as much as possible.  It sounds like you're trying to create a place where all of the dubious beings of lore play together, and have their place.

Personally I would go through, and anything that wasn't vital to the central plot (most of the rituals) would go on the *if we need it/ if it supports the plot* shelf.  Then I would make a list of all the characters that you want to include, and list their primary traits.  That way you've had a bit of an introduction and can decide if vampires really do enjoy hanging out with witches and angels, and if they participate in magical systems and what kind.

Unfortunately you've got a load of mixed nuts, and are fictionally saying they all come from the same tree.  Which presents some problems.

In total agreement with you, Mandi.  I use to write a column for a local paper, and sometimes the topic had (what seemed like) hundreds of subtopics, all feeding into the main one.  It's very difficult to stay on course yet cover all the bases without losing the reader.  If the material is too difficult for them to digest, either because of the complexity of the relationships you're building between the characters or the burdensome details of the various spells/rituals the characters will perform to be "realistic", you'll turn off the reader by the end of the 3rd Chapter.

Randall's comment about fictional magic just needing to have a realistic feel about it, not necessarily being real, was right on target.  And I believe it was Lyric who suggested an author's work that handled it well (good, comfortable, entertaining read).  Getting a feel for how much indepth research you might need to do to accomplish a realistic background for your characters might save you tons of hours and effort in the long run (you don't want to wear yourself out and never get the book finished).  That may be a good place to start.
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« Reply #28: April 20, 2007, 09:29:33 am »

[

" QUOTE " However, I've been describing magical practices (I personally am not involved in any religion), so Im not sure how your empowerment question relates to that?  I think I may be confused here, or possibly I've not been clear.  Could you tell me which part of a previous post you were responding to when you said "I understand the concept of different kinds of worship, like its how empowered you feel from what ever you do that works for you???"( I havnt quite got the how to quote thing, how do you do it for only one line or paragraph?Huh)

My response,
Sorry, I didn't mean to generalize. I was more responding to my take on the general concept, or maybe my belief. To me, magic comes from yourself and nature. If you use something to better you or your life or those around you, to me that's empowerment. This is just my take on the things that I've learned so far. I don't do religion, personally. I'm so thankful to everyone here for all the info I'm getting. Please don't take offense if I put my foot in my mouth. I want everyone to know that I've been looking up everything everyone says or suggests and I have a starting point. ( Grin) I would still be bogged in research with no point of origin if it were not for you guys.THANK YOU. Please don't stop giving advise, I'm still muddling threw logistics and practices.
Sincerly
Brandyewine
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« Reply #29: April 20, 2007, 09:41:33 am »

I havnt quite got the how to quote thing, how do you do it for only one line or paragraph?Huh

Just quote as you would for the whole post, by clicking the "Quote" button on the post you want to reply to.  Then, in the box where the quote appears and you type your reply, delete anything you don't need.  For instance, when I started this post, my reply box had this:

[quote author=brandyewine link=topic=762.msg11125#msg11125 date=1177075773]
[

" QUOTE " However, I've been describing magical practices (I personally am not involved in any religion), so Im not sure how your empowerment question relates to that?  I think I may be confused here, or possibly I've not been clear.  Could you tell me which part of a previous post you were responding to when you said "I understand the concept of different kinds of worship, like its how empowered you feel from what ever you do that works for you???"( I havnt quite got the how to quote thing, how do you do it for only one line or paragraph????)

My response,
Sorry, I didn't mean to generalize. I was more responding to my take on the general concept, or maybe my belief. To me, magic comes from yourself and nature. If you use something to better you or your life or those around you, to me that's empowerment. This is just my take on the things that I've learned so far. I don't do religion, personally. I'm so thankful to everyone here for all the info I'm getting. Please don't take offense if I put my foot in my mouth. I want everyone to know that I've been looking up everything everyone says or suggests and I have a starting point. ( ;D) I would still be bogged in research with no point of origin if it were not for you guys.THANK YOU. Please don't stop giving advise, I'm still muddling threw logistics and practices.
Sincerly
Brandyewine
[/quote]

I highlighted and deleted all of the stuff before what actually appears in my quote box above and deleted it, then did the same for after, just being sure to leave the [quote author=brandyewine link=topic=762.msg11125#msg11125 date=1177075773] at the beginning and [/quote] at the end.  Then I started typing my reply after the [/quote].

Hope that helps!
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