Earth based v.s other systems

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[BGMarc]

as if my puny existence meant nothing..which could be entirely true for all I know.

The odds are stacked against you there, because it seems to have meaning to you. Even if there is no other meaning, that one can be quite servicable at times. YMMV.

[RandallS]

The odds are stacked against you there, because it seems to have meaning to you. Even if there is no other meaning, that one can be quite servicable at times. YMMV.

I agree with BGMarc. Life appears to have meaning to you and that meaning is just as valid as any meaning others might assign to it. "Higher meanings" are in the eye of the beholder, too.

[Tana]

I agree with BGMarc. Life appears to have meaning to you and that meaning is just as valid as any meaning others might assign to it. "Higher meanings" are in the eye of the beholder, too.

That reminds me of something I've read - don't remember now where - but I liked it very much, it goes like this:
'The greatest gift that life gives us, is that it has no meaning - so we are free to give our own meaning to it.'

[Odjn]

In some views of magic, the tools do have inherent magical properties. I get the impression that you think this is a bad thing?

I think the focus is misdirected. The tools are, I think, merely the means..not the ends.

Life appears to have meaning to you

Actually it is the opposite for me..but that is another issue.

That reminds me of something I've read - don't remember now where - but I liked it very much, it goes like this:
'The greatest gift that life gives us, is that it has no meaning - so we are free to give our own meaning to it.'

Yes. I kind if figured long ago that life is meaningless and therefore any meaning I attach is simply..well, delusional..in a good sort of way I suppose.

Anyways thanks everyone for the input. I have much to think about..thanks.

[Tana]

Yes. I kind if figured long ago that life is meaningless and therefore any meaning I attach is simply..well, delusional..in a good sort of way I suppose

This is not the way it's meant.
Of course if you want to see it negative, that's freedom of choice too.

[Midnightrider]

Aside from polytheistic tendancies, what makes "earth based" belief systems any different from all the other belief systems out there?

In the so-called 'earth based" ones you have apparently a implied freedom to choose whatever deity suits you and implied freedom to choose what, if any, rituals to perform. However it seems that there is still this seemingly implied requirement to worship and cater to a deity to the point of having your life being run by said deity...so it SEEMS.

AS for "magic" it also SEEMS that a disproportionate amount of emphasis is being placed on tools and symbols to the point that it SEEMS that they are being viewed as magic rather than mere tools and intermediaries.

So what makes earth based paganism any different from any other belief system. What is the point of switching when it SEEMS one ismerely making a lateral transition from one method of worship to another?

I am not trying to offend but attempting to understand. Thanks

To me Earth based spritituality is an abstract term enveloping traditions, paths and cultures, ancient or modern. There is no one way of believing, and no one can say one path is better than another. I don't believe they are any different from each other; they are rather different ways of attaining/reaching the same goal. From pre-historical times all beliefs were "earth-based." The earth, sky, elements and surrounding objects were worshiped, eventually becoming personified. Through evolution and human manipulation major beliefs emerged and have been institutionalized with fixed rituals and tools, practices and celebrations. Others attract because while they have a set of rules and tools, they allow for freedom in thought and action, and still others are totally free of restrained rules and regulations, permitting believers to live, think and act according to their own consciences. Yet all these stem from one source: they were originally "earth-based."

[Odjn]

This is not the way it's meant.
Of course if you want to see it negative, that's freedom of choice too.

What I was trying to say that, in the case of the Sufi saying you quoted, if life has no inherent meaning then it really doesn't matter what meaning, if any, I attach to it since meaning is a matter of personal view and invention.

Ok. I understand now. Basically it is about how one personally approaches such issues..pretty much.

This is one thing I was trying to understand as I did research, so much information was revolving around rituals and not much was on the implied goal, somewhat like focusing on the type of car used for a trip but little is placed on the actual destination or if there even IS a destination. (Now wouldn't that be a hoot. Go driving and not have a clue where you're going)

At any rate I appreciate everyone lending their views on this subject. Right now I am attempting to wrap my tired mind and soul around this FlameKeepers thing. So I am appreciative of the suggestion to look into this.

My regrets that I was vague and ambiguous. I am not so good with expressing ideas in written or spoken words as there is a seeming Chinese Wall of political correctness and as a mere member I do not have the luxury of being overly blunt.

Thanks again everyone.

[HeartShadow - Cutethulhu]

At any rate I appreciate everyone lending their views on this subject. Right now I am attempting to wrap my tired mind and soul around this FlameKeepers thing. So I am appreciative of the suggestion to look into this.

Please ask me if there's anything I can do to help.  Unfortunately, organization is far from my strongest suit - and I'm afraid it shows on the website.

[Odjn]

Please ask me if there's anything I can do to help.  Unfortunately, organization is far from my strongest suit - and I'm afraid it shows on the website.

Thanks. I just looked at your site and bookmarked it too. After reading many entries I understand it better now and makes so much sense. Thanks.

[CrinklyBlue]

This is one thing I was trying to understand as I did research, so much information was revolving around rituals and not much was on the implied goal, somewhat like focusing on the type of car used for a trip but little is placed on the actual destination or if there even IS a destination. (Now wouldn't that be a hoot. Go driving and not have a clue where you're going)

I've been in that state for the past year and several months. I've always been drawn to rituals, but since leaving the Christian faith, I've had no ritual to fall back on. So all my reading and research as been focused on the types of rituals I enjoyed. Of course, with no real goal in sight, even my most favored of rituals (music-making) was empty and mere repetition. I'm learning how to relate to the world around me, and for now, that is my goal.

By the way...  I've driven like that many times. Just get in the car, pick a direction, and go until the gas runs low. I've found so many interesting places and shops like that. Sometimes it is good to go driving with no stated goal. I start to notice what's around me. 

My regrets that I was vague and ambiguous. I am not so good with expressing ideas in written or spoken words as there is a seeming Chinese Wall of political correctness and as a mere member I do not have the luxury of being overly blunt.

Don't regret speaking up and asking questions. I've learned from the discourse you started, and I'm thankful you spoke up. And while I've been (registered) here only a short while, I'm quite secure in saying there is no Chinese Wall of Political Correctness on this board.

[SunflowerP]

This is one thing I was trying to understand as I did research, so much information was revolving around rituals and not much was on the implied goal, somewhat like focusing on the type of car used for a trip but little is placed on the actual destination or if there even IS a destination.

The owner's manual for my car tells me lots about the type of car, but couldn't care less where I drive it - the destination is up to me.  I might choose a car based on where I want to go with it (if I have a cabin in the back of beyond, at the end of several miles of dirt track, I won't be driving a Jaguar to get there), but I'm the one behind the wheel.

Sunflower

[fiamma]

I think the focus is misdirected. The tools are, I think, merely the means..not the ends.

I believe that there is an inherent bit of magic within everything, including those tools. That isn't the same as saying that magic is the ends. Magic is, after all, only as magic does. All the magic and power in the universe could be contained in a single wand, but if it just lays there in someone's drawer, collected simply because it's magical, it's not going to do precisely the same as the idle knitting needle sitting on my desk: it's going to sit there and collect dust. The tools are still the means, just not merely the means.

[Waldfrau]

Yes. I kind if figured long ago that life is meaningless and therefore any meaning I attach is simply..well, delusional..in a good sort of way I suppose.

For me life itsself just has a deeper meaning because I don't think it would be there otherwise. But how that meaning is expressed into life goals, religious trappings etc. is in the eye of the beholder.

If religion and 'symbols' can't connect you why don't you try something more concrete and practical? I know some atheists who find a lot of meaning in social work, environmental work, human rights etc. They don't do it for any deity or spiritual goal, they just honor life itsself and want to protect it. And you don't need specific talents, there's so much different kind of work to do in every NGO that everyone can find some way to contribute.

I had a lot of issues with religion and saw myself as an atheist for some time. I've been in an environmental group and a human rights one and it has helped me a lot not to forget how precious and meaningful life is. You also see some real accomplishments if you don't give up easily.


I wish you a lot of fresh energy for the new year.

[dreamer27]

I consider myself a Pagan.  I believe that all sentient beings are children of nature, and are interconnected.  Rather then trying to conquer nature, we have to live in harmony with nature.

Once we see the divinity within, that we share with all other of nature's children, we are no  longer are full of fear.  For the first time  We are aware  of the beauty, the eternal within us all.  We know we are never alone.

I think this feeling of being part of nature, rather then above nature, is what seperates Pagens from other beleif systems

[Star]

I think this feeling of being part of nature, rather then above nature, is what seperates Pagens from other beleif systems

I don't think that's what separates Pagans, at large, from other belief systems.  That feeling you describe is not something that is necessarily common to all Pagans.  Not all Pagan religions consider nature to have any special importance.

I also would not say that all non-Pagans feel they're above nature.

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