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Author Topic: Ancient gods in a modern world?  (Read 25900 times)
Star
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« Reply #45: February 14, 2009, 09:35:41 pm »

I have no clue Cheesy

Google suggests to me (though, not being astrologically-inclined, I have no idea how accurate this is) that it came out of retrograde on February 1 and won't go back until May.  Which is really too damned bad, because it means I can't use it as an excuse for how poor my communication has been for the past few days!  LOL
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« Reply #46: February 15, 2009, 04:52:36 am »

Sorry, didn't want to sound know-it-all or something.

I didn't thought you would Wink

I like the Goddess Oracle - really.
And it is really useful, but one has to take it from the principle and maybe archetype POV.

Those cards are maybe not for recons  Grin Grin Grin
They might get a headache or so  Cheesy
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« Reply #47: February 17, 2009, 08:42:55 am »

Principally I agree, I'm not able to speak much from own experiences here, but it sounds logical to me.

Does anyone have ideas about Artemis in this regard? I don't have much experience, but the few I have in dreams and meditations have all taken place in a forest. So it's a bit hard to tell. The forest itsself didn't look ancient or originally wild. It looked like any forest I could be in today. Sorry that I can't contribute much here.


It's worth remembering that the most powerful deities often have significant overlap in Their spheres of influence. Artemis has two epithets which relate to city-dwellers, Sosipolis, "Savior Of The City", and Soteira, "Savior Goddess". I distinctly remember reading somewhere that deities were given the 'Savior' epithet when it was believed that a city or town was saved through the Goddess' or God's direct intervention.

Artemis is also known as a Goddess who upholds justice. She acts as judge, jury, and executioner to those who have incurred Her wrath.

She may not care whether the forest itself is old growth or new, with regard to its value as a place for communicating with Her worshippers. I live in a place as densely populated as Western Europe, and yet we have more forests now than a hundred years ago. Much of the land itself has an extremely complex history of human use. 99% of the trees were killed during a hurricane seventy years ago. A flood devastated my hometown fifty years ago, and the construction of a dam required one of our ten villages to be permanently flooded. That whole area is a parkland now, a picturesque lake. A crumbling road through the swamp is all that remains of its former human residents and their broken dreams.
 
Artemis took back what was rightfully Hers, and punished our community for allowing its rivers to be poisoned with every kind of industrial waste.

The Deathless Ones are vastly more complex, than the simple archetypes that some would have you believe. They are not always 'sugar and spice and everything nice', like the American expression about little girls.
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« Reply #48: February 17, 2009, 11:22:32 am »

It's worth remembering that the most powerful deities often have significant overlap in Their spheres of influence. Artemis has two epithets which relate to city-dwellers, Sosipolis, "Savior Of The City", and Soteira, "Savior Goddess". I distinctly remember reading somewhere that deities were given the 'Savior' epithet when it was believed that a city or town was saved through the Goddess' or God's direct intervention.
I came across this and it makes me wonder as her dislike of cities is indicated somewhere else:

Quote from: Callimachus Hymn
seldom is it that Artemis goes down to the town. On the mountains will I dwell and the cities of men I will visit only when women vexed by the sharp pang of childbirth call me to their aid

Maybe the city did something to gain her favor? Do you know the story behind it?

Btw, is there any indication she dislikes offerings in cities or buildings? Of course worship in nature would be preferable, but what about little offerings?

Quote
Artemis is also known as a Goddess who upholds justice. She acts as judge, jury, and executioner to those who have incurred Her wrath.
Not a personality I would want to cross and she's good with that bow.

Quote
Artemis took back what was rightfully Hers, and punished our community for allowing its rivers to be poisoned with every kind of industrial waste.
I'm in no place to judge that incident. There's no proof about what the gods influence and what they don't.

Quote
The Deathless Ones are vastly more complex, than the simple archetypes that some would have you believe. They are not always 'sugar and spice and everything nice', like the American expression about little girls.
I don't believe her to be an archetype and I don't find her cute at all. I find her rather scary to be honest. Not that she isn't perfectly beautiful and loveable, but there's such a terrifying power behind her appearance. Could be me inexperience though, maybe everyone feels that way in first encounters with deities?
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« Reply #49: February 17, 2009, 07:43:40 pm »

I came across this and it makes me wonder as her dislike of cities is indicated somewhere else:

Maybe the city did something to gain her favor? Do you know the story behind it?


* snip *


Btw, is there any indication she dislikes offerings in cities or buildings?


Researching the epithet Artemis Soteira, I came upon this entry at the always wonderful theoi.com:

http://www.theoi.com/Cult/ArtemisCult.html

I gleaned some interesting tidbits, which I paraphrase below:

The Battle of Marathon was won against the Persians on the 6th day of the month of Thargelion (6th day being the monthly holy day of Artemis) 490 B.C., and 500 goats were sacrificed by the Athenians.

The Athenians had slain a she-bear (sacred to Artemis, note her epithet Arktos "Bear") in the town of Mounykhia. A famine struck the town shortly thereafter, and a soothsayer prophesied that the only way to end it was for a daughter of Mounykhia to be sacrificed to Artemis. A local priest of Artemis, a clever man by the name of Baros, dressed his daughter as the intended sacrifice and had her remain inside the temple. Meanwhile, a goat dressed in his daughter's clothing was sacrificed to the Goddess instead.

(Side note: I hope that Artemis had a sense of humor that time, and showed mercy on the town.)

Similarly, a she-bear was slain at Brauron, and a plague was unleashed upon Athens. Henceforth, an oracle stated that all [virginal] girls between the ages of five and ten were required to 'play the bear', to ritually pay the blood price set by Artemis for the she-bear. 'Playing the bear' entailed dressing up in saffron-colored robes, and pretending to be bears during a major local festival of Artemis. No Athenian virgin could be given in marriage, who did not 'play the bear'.

The Megarians also gave the Goddess credit for saving their city from the warlord Mardonios, among other examples.

There are other instances in the article, of Artemis being given epithets like Phosphoros ("Bringer Of Light"), Paidotrophos ("Nurse Of Children"), Hegemone ("War Leader"). These have little to do with Her role in the wild. There were also temples dedicated to Her, found within cities.

That's not to say that Her major spheres of influence probably aren't the wildnerness, hunting, the rigors of outdoor life, young girls and childbirth (among others). It's just that She also has other aspects, as attested in the article.

Callimachus' personal beliefs about Artemis may have been shaped by local attitudes, or his own UPG with regard to Artemis. This is not to say that I know any better than Callimachus, far from it. I'm only saying that there seems to have been a diversity of opinion about Her willingness to aid city-dwelling mortals. I could of course be wrong.
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« Reply #50: February 18, 2009, 02:16:16 am »

I wasn't argueing the point, I was just curious on how those epithets match together. Thanks for the interesting post. Smiley
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« Reply #51: February 24, 2009, 05:51:19 am »

As a follow up question:

It's a touchy subject, but what do you think about human sacrifices in archaic times?

  • Is it something the gods no longer want?
  • Is it something humans have interpreted the gods to want, but they could have been satisfied with something else even in archaic times? (Like they care more about the symbology or accept other types of sacrifice than one to the death.)
  • Would the gods still like it, but do accept that we humans don't sacrifice our own kind to death anymore?
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« Reply #52: February 24, 2009, 06:16:01 am »

As a follow up question:

It's a touchy subject, but what do you think about human sacrifices in archaic times?

  • Is it something the gods no longer want?
  • Is it something humans have interpreted the gods to want, but they could have been satisfied with something else even in archaic times? (Like they care more about the symbology or accept other types of sacrifice than one to the death.)
  • Would the gods still like it, but do accept that we humans don't sacrifice our own kind to death anymore?

I suspect it depends on the god. My personal impression of Odin, at least, is option three. I don't really think they have our morals - they're beyond that. It's a force of personality rather than a civilized human.

(And Gaia represents the natural world - death's a part of everything. But She doesn't seem to be the blood thirsty sort even so.)

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« Last Edit: February 24, 2009, 07:58:11 am by Star, Reason: Fixing quote code » Logged

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« Reply #53: February 24, 2009, 08:58:49 am »

As a follow up question:

It's a touchy subject, but what do you think about human sacrifices in archaic times?

I think it really depends on the deity. Many deities probably never wanted it -- including some who may have occasionally got it. Others may have actually wanted it and probably still want it.
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« Reply #54: February 24, 2009, 09:01:49 am »

I think it really depends on the deity. Many deities probably never wanted it -- including some who may have occasionally got it. Others may have actually wanted it and probably still want it.
I think you're right, I wonder how people who work with deities connected to human sacrifices think about this.
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« Reply #55: February 24, 2009, 11:58:24 am »

As a follow up question:

It's a touchy subject, but what do you think about human sacrifices in archaic times?

  • Is it something the gods no longer want?
  • Is it something humans have interpreted the gods to want, but they could have been satisfied with something else even in archaic times? (Like they care more about the symbology or accept other types of sacrifice than one to the death.)
  • Would the gods still like it, but do accept that we humans don't sacrifice our own kind to death anymore?

My own feeling about this is it could be either 2 or 3 above, depending on the deity.  Considering that most responces to the thread indicate that the deities adapt or chance over time, what they like or acept also would change.

Since the God of Abraham acepted human sacrifice originally, and continued (wanted?) animal sacrifice in the temple, the same god apparently does not need either today.  And most of his follows would be horrified if performed today.
« Last Edit: February 24, 2009, 11:59:19 am by HeartShadow - Genevieve Wood, Reason: fixed quote » Logged
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« Reply #56: February 24, 2009, 12:00:12 pm »

Since the God of Abraham acepted human sacrifice originally, and continued (wanted?) animal sacrifice in the temple, the same god apparently does not need either today.

Actually, that's rather iffy.  There IS no Temple currently - and the sacrifices needed to be performed IN THE TEMPLE.

Animal sacrifice were the temple rebuilt is, as I understand it, a hot topic.
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« Reply #57: February 24, 2009, 12:11:42 pm »

Actually, that's rather iffy.  There IS no Temple currently - and the sacrifices needed to be performed IN THE TEMPLE.

Animal sacrifice were the temple rebuilt is, as I understand it, a hot topic.

Agreeded that there is no phyical proof of human sacrifice in the very early Hebrews.  But Isac appeared willing to sacrifice his son if needed.  There are some very large sacrifice alters which are the size used by others who did practice human sacrifice.

Since Abraham came out of a culture where it was done, well it would be more or less normal.
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« Reply #58: February 24, 2009, 12:15:55 pm »

Agreeded that there is no phyical proof of human sacrifice in the very early Hebrews.  But Isac appeared willing to sacrifice his son if needed.  There are some very large sacrifice alters which are the size used by others who did practice human sacrifice.

Since Abraham came out of a culture where it was done, well it would be more or less normal.

That's not what I said.

I'm saying that, should the Temple be rebuilt, they may well do animal sacrifices there again.

That's what's laid out in the Torah, after all - so it must be done.  According to some people.
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« Reply #59: February 25, 2009, 09:58:05 pm »

That's not what I said.

I'm saying that, should the Temple be rebuilt, they may well do animal sacrifices there again.

That's what's laid out in the Torah, after all - so it must be done.  According to some people.

Sorry. I did not read it correctly.

Yes, IF the temple should be rebuilt.   Yes there is debate.  But I do not see it being rebuilt for the forseeable future.
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