The Cauldron: A Pagan Forum (Archive Board)
June 24, 2021, 04:37:59 pm *
Welcome, Guest. Please login or register.

Login with username, password and session length
News: This is our Read Only Archive Board (closed to posting July 2011). Join our new vBulletin board!
 
  Portal   Forum   Help Rules Search Chat (Mux) Articles Login Register   *

Welcome, Guest. Please login or register.
June 24, 2021, 04:37:59 pm

Login with username, password and session length
Donate!
The Cauldron's server is expensive and requires monthly payments. Please become a Bronze, Silver or Gold Donor if you can. Donations are needed every month. Without member support, we can't afford the server.
TC Staff
Important Information about this Archive Board
This message board is The Cauldron: A Pagan Forum's SMF Archive Board. It is closed to new memberships and to posting, but there are over 250,000 messages here that you can still search and read -- many full of interesting and useful information. (This board was open from February 2007 through June 2011).

Our new vBulletin discussion board is located at http://www.ecauldron.com/forum/ -- if you would like to participate in discussions like those you see here, please visit our new vBulletin message board, register an account and join in our discussions. We hope you will find the information in this message archive useful and will consider joining us on our new board.
Pages: 1 [2] 3   Go Down
  Add bookmark  |  Print  
Author Topic: Working on Behalf of the Gods?  (Read 10134 times)
JamieG103
Apprentice
**
Last Login:May 26, 2009, 10:45:06 pm
United States United States

Religion: ADF - Neopagan Druidry
Posts: 26


Blog entries (0)

WWW

Ignore
« Reply #15: March 01, 2009, 09:33:18 am »

That's an interesting perspective -- that the gods make offerings to us.  Can you expand on that a bit?

Sure, though I suppose them "offering" to us is not exactly the right word. It would be more correct to say we offer to them in the knowledge that they will give us blessings in turn. These blessings may be insight, inspiration, courage, or just plain old "easy feelin'" and many more.

It is a pretty central concept in my religious tradition which we often identify by the Proto-Indo-European term *ghosti which basically means "one with whom another has a guest/host relationship" which sounds kind of cold on paper but is often expressed in the metaphor of friends and family. We invite one another into our lives and there are certain rules we must follow; respect, care, giving of gifts etc.

In ritual/prayer/meditation/what-ever we invite the Kindreds into our lives. We give them offerings and praise. In return we receive not only those blessings listed above but also gain allies, someone to turn to when things are bad, someone to celebrate with when things are good.

It is quite a bit of a different relationship, I find, than the model which stresses "all good things spring from the Gods" and when the bad happens it must because we screwed up or failed in some ways. I find it to be a deeper relationship and more fulfilling.
Logged

"... If we are few, it’s all the more reason for us to speak up with our lives." ~ Gordon McKeeman

Welcome, Guest!
You will need to register and/or login to participate in our discussions.

Read our Rules and Policies and the Quoting Guidelines.

Help Fund Our Server? Donate to Lyricfox's Cancer Fund?

JamieG103
Apprentice
**
Last Login:May 26, 2009, 10:45:06 pm
United States United States

Religion: ADF - Neopagan Druidry
Posts: 26


Blog entries (0)

WWW

Ignore
« Reply #16: March 01, 2009, 09:34:47 am »

Rin posted a link to a comic in a thread on a related topic not long ago that covers a chunk of how I feel about it

Wonderful comic, thank you Sunflower and Rin
Logged

"... If we are few, it’s all the more reason for us to speak up with our lives." ~ Gordon McKeeman
Aster Breo
SIG Coordinator
Staff
Grand Adept Member
***
Last Login:January 29, 2013, 09:32:22 pm
United States United States

Religion: Feral Brighideach
TCN ID: Aster Breo
Posts: 5260


Avatar byJuni & Dania

Blog entries (0)


« Reply #17: March 01, 2009, 09:48:54 am »

Sure, though I suppose them "offering" to us is not exactly the right word. It would be more correct to say we offer to them in the knowledge that they will give us blessings in turn. These blessings may be insight, inspiration, courage, or just plain old "easy feelin'" and many more.

Ah.  I understand what you mean.  "Blessings" makes sense to me.

But I'm still intrigued by the idea of the gods making offerings to humans...

Do you feel that the gods bestow ever blessings as a way to persuade us to do what they want?  IOW, do the gods ever "make offerings" to humans the way humans sometimes make offerings to gods to persuade them to help us?

Or would that just be bribery?  Or maybe extortion...?  Wink

(That question isn't directed specifically at JamieG.  It's just a follow-up thought for whoever wants to answer.)
Logged

"The single biggest problem with communication is the illusion that it has taken place."  ~ George Bernard Shaw
rose
High Adept Member
******
Last Login:September 01, 2011, 10:16:28 pm
United States United States

Religion: Shakti Wiccan with Reclaiming leanings
TCN ID: rose
Posts: 2923

Blog entries (0)

rose shannon
WWW

Ignore
« Reply #18: March 01, 2009, 10:15:10 am »

Ah.  I understand what you mean.  "Blessings" makes sense to me.

But I'm still intrigued by the idea of the gods making offerings to humans...

Do you feel that the gods bestow ever blessings as a way to persuade us to do what they want?  IOW, do the gods ever "make offerings" to humans the way humans sometimes make offerings to gods to persuade them to help us?

Or would that just be bribery?  Or maybe extortion...?  Wink

(That question isn't directed specifically at JamieG.  It's just a follow-up thought for whoever wants to answer.)

In my tradition, the Goddess bestows boons when you approach Her the way She likes to be approached, and have a really clear intent in your mind-this is why some folks are highly successful at using Tantric left hand path techniques for bullshit, like controlling other people for financial gain and getting babes and so on, but that is not at all what every left hand path person is up to (not any that I hang with, at any rate). And sometimes She bestows them b/c that's what She feels like doing for fun at the moment, and you are pleasing to Her bc you just are extra pleasing that day, for whatever reason. I agree with Jamie that it is a reciprocal relationship, not so much based on need as affinity.
Logged

Goddess grant me:
  The power of Water,
  to accept with ease & grace what I cannot change.

  The power of Fire,
  for the energy & courage to change the things I can.

  The power of Air,
  for the ability and wisdom to know the difference.

  And the power of Earth,
  for the strength to continue my path.

http://rosejayadal.blogspot.com/
bluarcadia
Newbie
*
Last Login:January 18, 2010, 01:21:59 pm
United States United States

Religion: pagan
Posts: 1


Blog entries (0)



Ignore
« Reply #19: March 01, 2009, 10:59:26 am »

What do you think?  Do the gods need us, and if so, for what?  I know Shad, f'ex, has a theory that we are the eyes and hands of the gods.  What does that mean in practice?  Are there specific activities or things that you feel you are encouraged or even required to do for your god/dess(es)?  What happens if you don't do them?  How do you know what you're supposed to do?

The Goddess has called me to be a healer.  I agree with the idea that we can be the eyes and hands of the Goddess if we open ourselves up to this possibility. 

I know that She requires me to be a healer because She has told me so; She speaks with me just as She does all of us in one way or another.

Specific things I'm required to do is to take good care of my body and be compassionate to everyone, especially those I don't care for.  I have also cleaned litter from a small wooded area per Her direction. 

I don't think that She needs me per se.  She has indicated that there is a great need for healing in all of Her creation and has charged me with being open to helping those around me in whatever way I can.  Blessings to all~blu
Logged
SunflowerP
Moderator
Grand Adept Member
***
Last Login:June 19, 2021, 03:02:41 am
Canada Canada

Religion: Eclectic Wicca-compatible religious Witch (Libertarian Witchcraft)
TCN ID: SunflowerP
Posts: 5485


Blog entries (0)

WWW
« Reply #20: March 01, 2009, 11:53:35 am »

But I'm still intrigued by the idea of the gods making offerings to humans...

Do you feel that the gods bestow ever blessings as a way to persuade us to do what they want?  IOW, do the gods ever "make offerings" to humans the way humans sometimes make offerings to gods to persuade them to help us?

Or would that just be bribery?  Or maybe extortion...?  Wink
The Chaotic Canine has been known to try that.  I learned very early to be extremely cautious when he seemed too generous; there are always strings, and he's prone to "forgetting" to mention them.  It's quite a bit different since my relationship with him changed (you shoulda seen me looking at that proposal from every angle I could think of checking for "catches"!), but I still apply a policy of getting all the info I can pry loose.  OTOH, as Marilyn has often noted, he's a bargainer, and a sharp one; if those who deal with him don't learn to be sharp bargainers themselves he may take advantage of their inattention, but he keeps his deals - so "offer to each other" is a reasonably apt way to describe it.

The "trickstery" kind of thing hasn't, as far as I recall, come up with any of the others I work with, but I wouldn't put it past some of them - several have some degree of "trickster" association.

There are other sorts of things that, while it never occurred to me to characterize it as "offer to each other", could fit that phrase.  JamieG's description of how it works is more Heathen-y than my own experiences, but it's not that far different; one of the reasons I so often use the phrase "deity-type people" is because for me it is a mutually-beneficial reciprocal relationship between people.

Which, come to think of it, is a big part of why I have trouble articulating answers to these sorts of questions - there's a difference in base assumptions.  Not to say people - you or anyone else - should change how they're asked; deity-relationship paradigms that do have those base assumptions are, I think, more common, so it's likely the best form for getting a full range of answers.  But if I remember to adjust for it, I'll probably be better at responding when things in this line come up.

Sunflower
Logged

Don't teach your grandmother to suck eggs!
I do so have a life.  I just live part of it online.
“Selfishness is not living as one wishes to live, it is asking others
to live as one wishes to live.” - Oscar Wilde
My blog "If You Ain't Makin' Waves, You Ain't Kickin' Hard Enough", at Dreamwidth and LJ
Darkhawk
Chief Mux Wizard
Staff
Adept Member
***
*
Last Login:January 20, 2020, 08:24:45 pm
United States United States

Religion: Kemetic Feri Discordian
Posts: 2485

Blog entries (0)

WWW
« Reply #21: March 02, 2009, 03:56:39 pm »

That's an interesting perspective -- that the gods make offerings to us.  Can you expand on that a bit?

One of the core parts of Egyptian offering practice is that offerings are returning to the gods what They have given, so that they are both capable of continuing to support the cycle of creation and positively inclined to do so to the benefit of people.

I'm inclined to feel that all things are based in that sort of reciprocity; ancestor veneration is offering back some of the ka-energy that the ancestors passed to us so that we could live, thereby sustaining the family soul, and so on.
Logged

Aster Breo
SIG Coordinator
Staff
Grand Adept Member
***
Last Login:January 29, 2013, 09:32:22 pm
United States United States

Religion: Feral Brighideach
TCN ID: Aster Breo
Posts: 5260


Avatar byJuni & Dania

Blog entries (0)


« Reply #22: March 02, 2009, 04:06:12 pm »

One of the core parts of Egyptian offering practice is that offerings are returning to the gods what They have given, so that they are both capable of continuing to support the cycle of creation and positively inclined to do so to the benefit of people.

That's a really interesting perspective.

If the offerings are food, does that mean that the gods literally take sustenance (i.e., nutrition of some kind) from the offerings?  How do non-food offerings fit in?  Are there acceptable kinds of offerings that are not tangible -- like doing volunteer work?

Are worshipers required to make offerings?  What if they don't?
Logged

"The single biggest problem with communication is the illusion that it has taken place."  ~ George Bernard Shaw
Darkhawk
Chief Mux Wizard
Staff
Adept Member
***
*
Last Login:January 20, 2020, 08:24:45 pm
United States United States

Religion: Kemetic Feri Discordian
Posts: 2485

Blog entries (0)

WWW
« Reply #23: March 02, 2009, 05:20:49 pm »

If the offerings are food, does that mean that the gods literally take sustenance (i.e., nutrition of some kind) from the offerings?  How do non-food offerings fit in?  Are there acceptable kinds of offerings that are not tangible -- like doing volunteer work?

I'm not up for digging for my books for my actual references on this, but the phrase I'm remembering is "We give so that you may continue to give."

Standard offering liturgy is "May your ka be fed."  This implies that there is some level of shared sustenance going on; I actually tend to compare it to Hindu offering practices where, as the god consumes the energy of the offering, the god's energy is left in the material component, thereby making it Better Food (or whatever).

It is also said (and sometimes portrayed) that the fundamental food of the gods is ma'at, right action, and thus by performing ma'at, one is sustaining the gods.  I would consider food offerings to be, basically, a subset or specific example of right action, an easy-for-people-to-grasp representation of the all-encompassing nature of ma'at.

I would have a hard time considering someone who was not striving to live their life as an offering of ma'at a worshipper of the Egyptian gods.  The symbolic representative offerings are less important than what they indicate one is aligned towards.
Logged

dragonfaerie
Coffee Goddess
Adept Member
*****
*
*
*
Last Login:July 06, 2011, 06:19:49 pm
United States United States

Religion: Witchcraft
TCN ID: dragonfaerie
Posts: 862


Priestess of the Circle of Amber Heart

Blog entries (0)

terpette terpette terpette
WWW

Ignore
« Reply #24: March 03, 2009, 08:24:46 pm »

What do you think?  Do the gods need us, and if so, for what?  I know Shad, f'ex, has a theory that we are the eyes and hands of the gods.  What does that mean in practice?  Are there specific activities or things that you feel you are encouraged or even required to do for your god/dess(es)?  What happens if you don't do them?  How do you know what you're supposed to do?

I feel that we're the way the Gods interact on this plane. That they can't, for some reason, truly interact with the realm of humans directly, so they need their chosen ones to do the work. Don't ask me where exactly this notion came from... it's firmly UPG.

Quote
For Cill members and others who have a relationship with Brighid:  Do you feel Brighid needs you/us to do specific things?  If so, what?  Are they *required* or just encouraged?

I think she needs me to write and teach about her, the Irish gods, and the Craft. And I think it's my guiding purpose in life. Again, that's UPG, but it's a recurring theme I've gotten over my many years of witchcraft study and guided meditations.

Karen
Logged

Writings on Wicca & Witchcraft
Read my journal!
Today's Mood Forecast:
Fanboy's Convention List
Garnet
Adept Member
*****
*
Last Login:November 01, 2015, 10:19:49 pm
United States United States

Religion: Departmental; Eclectic/NeoWiccan, Feri/Morningstar Student, Thelemite
Posts: 1316


My path is an omelet

Blog entries (0)



Ignore
« Reply #25: March 08, 2009, 10:22:50 pm »

Your words make me think of this blog I read today http://www.magpie-girl.com/20090227/stepping-out-of-the-struggle/

I like that - it reminds me of some things I've learned in Feri.  Sitting with a third option between two "opposites" - yeah.
Logged

Garnet
Adept Member
*****
*
Last Login:November 01, 2015, 10:19:49 pm
United States United States

Religion: Departmental; Eclectic/NeoWiccan, Feri/Morningstar Student, Thelemite
Posts: 1316


My path is an omelet

Blog entries (0)



Ignore
« Reply #26: March 22, 2009, 02:25:39 am »

It is a pretty central concept in my religious tradition which we often identify by the Proto-Indo-European term *ghosti which basically means "one with whom another has a guest/host relationship" which sounds kind of cold on paper but is often expressed in the metaphor of friends and family. ome ways. I find it to be a deeper relationship and more fulfilling.

I don't think that sounds cold, really.  Reciprocity and hospitality are very important to me.
Logged

Garnet
Adept Member
*****
*
Last Login:November 01, 2015, 10:19:49 pm
United States United States

Religion: Departmental; Eclectic/NeoWiccan, Feri/Morningstar Student, Thelemite
Posts: 1316


My path is an omelet

Blog entries (0)



Ignore
« Reply #27: March 22, 2009, 02:27:56 am »

Do you feel that the gods bestow ever blessings as a way to persuade us to do what they want?  IOW, do the gods ever "make offerings" to humans the way humans sometimes make offerings to gods to persuade them to help us?

Or would that just be bribery?  Or maybe extortion...?  Wink

I've definitely had experience with gods helping me with things that are mutually beneficial.  For example, Them helping me with my job search helped me meet my basic needs so I can do Their work better (hopefully).
Logged

rose
High Adept Member
******
Last Login:September 01, 2011, 10:16:28 pm
United States United States

Religion: Shakti Wiccan with Reclaiming leanings
TCN ID: rose
Posts: 2923

Blog entries (0)

rose shannon
WWW

Ignore
« Reply #28: March 22, 2009, 01:12:56 pm »

I've definitely had experience with gods helping me with things that are mutually beneficial.  For example, Them helping me with my job search helped me meet my basic needs so I can do Their work better (hopefully).

yeah, that's my experience. They will support me as long as what I want to do supports the highest good in the situation. That's why I don't do any magick until I feel pretty confident that I know what that is, either through some kind of direct instruction from my deities or my own work on the matter.
Logged

Goddess grant me:
  The power of Water,
  to accept with ease & grace what I cannot change.

  The power of Fire,
  for the energy & courage to change the things I can.

  The power of Air,
  for the ability and wisdom to know the difference.

  And the power of Earth,
  for the strength to continue my path.

http://rosejayadal.blogspot.com/
dragonfaerie
Coffee Goddess
Adept Member
*****
*
*
*
Last Login:July 06, 2011, 06:19:49 pm
United States United States

Religion: Witchcraft
TCN ID: dragonfaerie
Posts: 862


Priestess of the Circle of Amber Heart

Blog entries (0)

terpette terpette terpette
WWW

Ignore
« Reply #29: March 24, 2009, 10:18:54 pm »

yeah, that's my experience. They will support me as long as what I want to do supports the highest good in the situation. That's why I don't do any magick until I feel pretty confident that I know what that is, either through some kind of direct instruction from my deities or my own work on the matter.

I find that my magic works better when I spell for what I need, and not necessarily what I want. For example, my last job spell... I didn't do a spell for XYZ job. I did a spell to find a job with the qualities I desired: good pay, nice boss, being left alone to do my work, etc. I asked the gods to show me the right opportunity, and they did. Now, no, it's not my absolutely perfect dream job. But it is what I needed, and by leaving the request open-ended I was able to stay open-minded enough to recognize the opportunity when it came by.

Karen
Logged

Writings on Wicca & Witchcraft
Read my journal!
Today's Mood Forecast:
Fanboy's Convention List

Donor Ad: Become a Silver or Gold Donor to get your ad here.

Tags:
Pages: 1 [2] 3   Go Up
  Add bookmark  |  Print  
 
Jump to:  
  Portal   Forum   Help Rules Search Chat (Mux) Articles Login Register   *

* Share this topic...
In a forum
(BBCode)
In a site/blog
(HTML)


Related Topics
Subject Started by Replies Views Last post
Working with the Gods on a daily basis... « 1 2 »
Faith in Everyday Life
AIONIA 15 4559 Last post July 29, 2007, 06:24:37 pm
by Lorraine
Gods as Ideas vs Gods as Deities « 1 2 3 4 »
Paganism For Beginners
dartxni 45 22408 Last post October 14, 2009, 04:57:11 pm
by Lost-in-Translation
How Do You Know It's Working?
Magic and the Occult for Beginners
MedusianProphecy 14 6666 Last post April 24, 2008, 10:21:43 pm
by MedusianProphecy
Homer's Gods, Plato's Gods. « 1 2 »
Ta Hiera Hellenic Polytheism SIG
Therapon 16 10444 Last post August 09, 2008, 08:24:49 pm
by thain
Not working with Gods.
Paganism For Beginners
whitedragon 4 1946 Last post December 21, 2010, 02:00:23 am
by Aster Breo
EU Cookie Notice: This site uses cookies. By using this site you consent to their use.


Powered by MySQL Powered by PHP Powered by SMF 1.1.21 | SMF © 2006-2008, Simple Machines
TinyPortal v0.9.8 © Bloc
Valid XHTML 1.0! Valid CSS!
Page created in 0.069 seconds with 56 queries.