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Author Topic: Does self harm go against the Rede  (Read 9717 times)
Lost-in-Translation
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« Topic Start: March 11, 2009, 10:19:55 pm »

I suffer from depression and struggle with sef harm and have been pondering something.

I am so scared Mother (Goddess) is mad at me... or I have disgraced her... or... something...
because, well, is self harm going against the Rede?
It says, "An it harm none, do what ye will."
Harm none... that includes oneself... does it not?

I don't know why this has suddenly started haunting my thoughts.
I have never really even given it any thought, but now...


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« Reply #1: March 12, 2009, 02:37:42 am »

I suffer from depression and struggle with sef harm and have been pondering something.

I am so scared Mother (Goddess) is mad at me... or I have disgraced her... or... something...
because, well, is self harm going against the Rede?
It says, "An it harm none, do what ye will."
Harm none... that includes oneself... does it not?

I don't know why this has suddenly started haunting my thoughts.
I have never really even given it any thought, but now...


I’ll preface this by saying I no longer follow the Rede. My current path does not lend itself to that ideal. But once, when I was still a beginning 101 type Wiccan, I did believe in it, and I too struggled with depression during that time (I still do, but in a different way than I used to). On a technical note, my feeling is that it largely depends on how you interpret the Rede. One thing I discovered fairly early on was that there are multiple ways of reading and interpreting the Rede. However, IMHO that isn’t the real issue here.

From my personal experience with depression, I learned that even when I thought the things I did only hurt me, in reality, they hurt a lot of other people too: family, friends, teachers… anyone who cared about me. Humans are social creatures. None of us exist in a vacuum. We have relationships with others, whether those relationships please us or not, are helpful or not, etc…they are still relationships. When you’re depressed, sometimes your world can constrict and narrow into being just the problems you face day to day, you get consumed just convincing yourself to get out of bed and keep on living. People who haven’t suffered with it themselves don’t always ‘get’ how bad the pain can be. People get frustrated and feel powerless to help a depressed loved one, and they get scared and desperate. They say things they shouldn’t or do things that make it worse because they don’t have the education and information they need to be effective in supporting a depressed loved one. So it can sometimes be easy to believe that the people around you ‘don’t care’, even if that isn’t the case, just based on their actions.

But people do care, and when you hurt yourself, it hurts them too. No one wants to see a loved one suffer.

That said, it’s not necessarily something worth beating yourself up over.  Even when you’re getting help, and working on your issues, it can be a long process. You take two steps forward and one step back. Depression isn’t like a lot of other illnesses, you can’t just pop a pill or go through ‘treatments’ to fix it. Depression is a lifelong challenge, and even when you think you’ve beat it, it can come back. If you’re already getting help, you are doing what you need to do. Just keep doing it.

As for Mother/Goddess being angry with you, I don’t know her, but based on my experiences with my gods, I would think that is unlikely. I would think she would want you to go get help if you hadn’t already, and might strongly nudge you to do so (personally, my own patron would kick my bottom if I was being stubborn about it, but only because I need that sometimes and it helps immensely). But if you are doing the best that you personally can do (and I don’t mean the unrealistic goals we sometimes set for ourselves, I mean the realistic ‘best’ you can do), I would think she would have to accept that. You’re human. Your best is all you can give. If you’ve done your part, the universe has to meet you half-way.

I sympathize with you. I don’t know the specifics of your situation, but I know how awful depression has been for me at times, how bad the pain has to be before self-harm becomes an attractive option, I can imagine we probably have at least a few experiences in common. I pray that there is light on that path for you and that you find the place where the world becomes bearable again.

May your Goddess be with you. 
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« Reply #2: March 12, 2009, 06:28:09 am »

I suffer from depression and struggle with sef harm and have been pondering something.

I am so scared Mother (Goddess) is mad at me... or I have disgraced her... or... something...
because, well, is self harm going against the Rede?
It says, "An it harm none, do what ye will."
Harm none... that includes oneself... does it not?

I don't know why this has suddenly started haunting my thoughts.
I have never really even given it any thought, but now...
Yes, "harm none" includes oneself.  But the Rede is not "the One Commandment", and it's not the Goddess's job to harshly punish those who break it; "Rede" means "advice", and it only directly addresses actions which do no harm (they're permissible without restriction - that implies that actions which do harm might have restrictions, but it doesn't say so directly and says nothing about what those restrictions might be).

And neither depression nor self-harm is a character flaw or a personal shortcoming.  Depression is an illness, and self-harm is a technique for attempting to deal with that illness - one that usually causes more problems than it solves, but still a technique.

I'm seeing a lot of things between the lines here, not all of which may apply directly to you and your situation.  One that I'm pretty sure does apply is, that sounds like "the depression talking" - sometimes depression can seem like an intelligent parasite, feeding on your negative self-talk and generating even more low self-worth, and feeding on that in turn (it's why those who suffer chronic depression often use metaphors like "demons" or "the Black Dog").  Being aware that your sense of having angered/disgraced your goddess is part of that cycle will help you to break it - it won't fix it all by itself, it's just one tool, but recognizing that cycle and how it works is a critically important tool.

I'm also wondering if perhaps you were raised in a particularly shame-and-punishment oriented denomination of Christianity - your profile doesn't specify, but I'm guessing there was quite a bit of focus on how easily-enraged God was, and how harshly he'd punish those who weren't exactly what he wanted them to be (and/or, your parents used shame/disgrace as a disciplinary method).  None of that is any of my business unless you want to share; I bring it up simply as things that it might be helpful to you to poke at and deconstruct.  Ideally, with the help of a good therapist who's a good fit for you, but I know that's not always something that's accessible.

I applaud your courage in speaking of this in a public thread - it takes a lot of guts to talk about stuff like this.

(((Lost-in-Translation)))

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« Reply #3: March 12, 2009, 06:44:25 am »



Have you tried seeking counselling/ help with regards to the underlying feelings?  I would think that dwelling on guilty feelings is actually just going to make you more likely to self-harm again.
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« Reply #4: March 12, 2009, 10:51:33 am »

I suffer from depression and struggle with sef harm and have been pondering something.
Being new to this, my take may not be right, but I look at my goddess as a maternal figure just as I looked at god as a father figure when I was christian.  To me, a goddess would love you and want you well and healthy, but would not be angry with you when you struggle because all humans struggle from time to time.  You did not choose depression, it's an illness.  But now you get to empower yourself by choosing how to deal with it.

And neither depression nor self-harm is a character flaw or a personal shortcoming.  Depression is an illness, and self-harm is a technique for attempting to deal with that illness - one that usually causes more problems than it solves, but still a technique.
I very much agree with this.  I hope you'll seek help.
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« Reply #5: March 12, 2009, 01:00:04 pm »

I am so scared Mother (Goddess) is mad at me... or I have disgraced her... or... something...

A lot of what I would offer has already been said by both Lykaios and Sunflower so I won't bore you by repeating it.  What I can off is this: the various interactions I've had with Deity-types have never led me to believe that they are vengeful in the sense that I failed them in some nebulous manner and would now be punished accordingly.  Granted, I've only worked with One initimately and a couple of Others in passing but it feels that They have more of a protection/desire-to-help Their chosen than anything else.  I'm not satisifed with how that statement reads but I can't think of a better wording at the moment.

Quote from: Lost-in-Translation
It says, "An it harm none, do what ye will."

That's one version of the Rede, sure.  Another one that I've read is "An it harm none, do as you will. An it cause harm, do as you must."  which is much more practical and realistic.  You may be interested in looking over this article: Wicca for the Rest of Us: The Wiccan Rede.  There's also the Wiccan Rede Project which may offer some other interpretations that would interest you.  As Sunflower said, it's advice not a law.

I approach the concept of self-harm with the attitude of "Ok, what do I need to do to manage the situation immediately so that I can get to a place that will allow me to deal with it in a more long term manner?"  If I didn't I would have serious reservations with taking something as innocuous as an aspirin which can be poisonous in high enough dosages.

((Lost-in-Translation )) hang in there.  Eventually the pendulum will swing back the other way and your good days will outnumber your not-so-good days.

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« Reply #6: March 12, 2009, 01:06:43 pm »

I suffer from depression and struggle with sef harm and have been pondering something.

I am so scared Mother (Goddess) is mad at me... or I have disgraced her... or... something...
because, well, is self harm going against the Rede?
It says, "An it harm none, do what ye will."
Harm none... that includes oneself... does it not?

I don't know why this has suddenly started haunting my thoughts.
I have never really even given it any thought, but now...

Of course it includes yourself.  But it is not typical of the gods and goddesses of my acquaintance to be overly worried by this.  They would prefer we not harm ourselves, certainly.

A friend of mine is undergoing acupuncture to help her move away from self-injury.  I, myself, used to be a serious picker (one of the least recognized forms of self-injury) and it took me a great deal of effort to retrain myself to healthier options.  If you can, find some help to get past the depression  and the urge to harm yourself.  It is so very worth the effort. 
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« Reply #7: March 12, 2009, 04:13:52 pm »

I don't know why this has suddenly started haunting my thoughts.
I have never really even given it any thought, but now...

I want to say that you are very brave for telling of us of your struggles.  Admitting to them and seeking help is the first step in your recovery from such things.  I have bipolar disorder and in the past I too have self-harmed.  This was many years ago and things that helped me to control this have been:  believing in myself, finding an activity to do when such thoughts would overwhelm me such as making jewelry, painting and especially writing, keeping a blog online that expressed my feelings (this gave me a reference point and I could see when and sometimes why the overwhelming thoughts would come to me) and building a good support network of close friends and family members.  I also did things like talk to a therapist, attend a DBSA support group for people with mood disorders and of course, take my medicine and be an active member in my treatment which to me is expecting good treatment from health professionals and keeping open communication with them.

Good luck with overcoming these feelings and thoughts.  I applaud you and I believe that everyone is worthwhile and beautiful in the eyes of the God(s). 


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« Reply #8: March 21, 2009, 02:34:38 pm »

I suffer from depression and struggle with sef harm and have been pondering something.

I am so scared Mother (Goddess) is mad at me... or I have disgraced her... or... something...
because, well, is self harm going against the Rede?
It says, "An it harm none, do what ye will."
Harm none... that includes oneself... does it not?

I don't know why this has suddenly started haunting my thoughts.
I have never really even given it any thought, but now...


In my humble opinion, the Rede is not a prohibition on harm. It's an aknowledgement that any action that doesn't cause harm is acceptable (This is pretty much a direct quote from the article that Lost-in-translation referenced.  Do read it.  It's good).  There are so many religious paths that prohibit action that *does not* cause harm, and I think this may have been a reaction against this. 

If it really were a rule about "harming none" it would be impossible for anyone to keep.  Mostly, I've always seen it as advice to recognize the impact of one's actions on the community of beings with which we interact in every moment. 

I have also struggled with depression (bipolar).  In my experience with the Gods, they have been very willing to help me as long as they see that I'm doing the work it takes to get better.  The ones I worship have never blamed me for having a disease.  Of course, I can only speak for my own Patron and a few other important Deities that have been with me over the years.  While I have had an experience of the Gods kicking me in the pants if I'm not working to better myself, they have never expected me to be perfect.   And when they *do* kick me in the pants, it's NOT because they think I'm a horrible person.  It's because they see potential in me, and want to see me reach that potential.  It's tough love. 

Struggling with depression is a journey that takes a lot of courage.  I think the Gods know that.
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« Reply #9: March 22, 2009, 06:05:02 pm »


I can't really speak to the against-the-Rede part. But I find it hard to believe that the Mother Goddess is angry at you for the symptoms of your depression. I haven't worked with Her, but those I have worked with have never, ever chastised or punished me for my depression or for my anorexia (I thought a goddess of the hearth, whose shrine is in my kitchen, no less, would get impatient with starvation real fast, but She didn't). As others have reported upthread, I've gotten nudges and outright kicks in the ass, but never punishment. As for the Goddess in question for you, I am going to assume She does not want you to hurt; She's your Mother. Admittedly, I don't know Her at all, so all of this is speculation, but what I'd assume She wants is for you to take care of yourself in a way that shows you consider yourself as worthwhile as She does. That's wicked hard with depression, but I'm going to assume She knows that, too. I hope you're getting some kind of help, and I hope this gets better (it does get better, I promise, having been through that particular descent-and-return more times than I can remember).

I feel like I'm not adding much other than personal experience, but your post broke my heart a little and I had to respond. All my best wishes for whatever is to come for you.
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« Reply #10: March 23, 2009, 09:53:45 pm »

I suffer from depression and struggle with sef harm and have been pondering something.

I am so scared Mother (Goddess) is mad at me... or I have disgraced her... or... something...
because, well, is self harm going against the Rede?
It says, "An it harm none, do what ye will."
Harm none... that includes oneself... does it not?

I don't know why this has suddenly started haunting my thoughts.
I have never really even given it any thought, but now...




From my perspective, yes it does include you. That does not mean, however, that She is more concerned with a law than your personal struggle. Look at how brave you are to make this out reach, and even ask this question to yourself let alone others. If you truly have a Mother relationship with diety, She is proud of you and the work you are doing to overcome your struggles.

I think we often as a community get caught up in the little things, the logistics, the details. Yes small things count, but it is the larger meanings and struggles that need to be looked at.
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« Reply #11: March 23, 2009, 10:31:53 pm »

From my perspective, yes it does include you. That does not mean, however, that She is more concerned with a law than your personal struggle. Look at how brave you are to make this out reach, and even ask this question to yourself let alone others. If you truly have a Mother relationship with diety, She is proud of you and the work you are doing to overcome your struggles.

I think we often as a community get caught up in the little things, the logistics, the details. Yes small things count, but it is the larger meanings and struggles that need to be looked at.

You put that beautifully Smiley   
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« Reply #12: March 30, 2009, 12:25:08 am »

You put that beautifully Smiley   

Thank you  Smiley
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Jim Halpert:     We didn't play many video games in Scranton. Instead we'd do stuff like.. uh, Pam and I would sometimes hum the same high pitched note and try to get Dwight to make an appointment with an ear doctor. And, uh, Pam called it... Pretendinitis.
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« Reply #13: May 23, 2009, 11:39:26 pm »

I am so scared Mother (Goddess) is mad at me... or I have disgraced her... or... something...
because, well, is self harm going against the Rede?
It says, "An it harm none, do what ye will."
Harm none... that includes oneself... does it not?

As a disclaimer, I feel like I need to say that I do not want to encourage you to harm yourself.

However, I think the Rede as a whole is a sticky subject. On the simplest level, yes, self-harm goes against the goal to harm none. However, I have come to see more and more that it is impossible to avoid harm completely. When we eat things that were once living, we harm them; when we choose to act in self-defense, we harm the attacker; when we save one person and are unable to help another, we harm the latter. I think the important point to realize about the Rede as a more developed conception is that life involves choices. Over the long term, we should try to choose those options for which we would be pleased to accept responsibility. This generally involves trying to cause the least amount of harm and the greatest amount of good.

Now, to return to the idea of self-harm, you can probably see how this latter idea of the Rede complicates things. On a physical level, self-mutilation causes much harm; it inflicts pain and oftentimes infection on the body and tends to isolate and frighten others. However, self-mutilation on a chemical level releases endorphins and can be a temporary outlet for psychological trauma. So, yes, self-harm in general is obviously causing harm. But what if this self-harm, perhaps through its temporary relief or its capacity to draw attention, happens to prevent future suicide? Then things get a little sticky.

All I can say is that you should listen to your gut feelings. Your post implies that you are already feeling a guilty kind of fear about self-harm. Might this suggest that, for you, this option is not one that you would like to accept responsibility for in the future? There are many, many ways to deal with depression. And they are often quite gradual and, unfortunately, painful. All you can do is look within yourself and try to see the best way to bring yourself through it. Sometimes this involves getting professional help from others.

I went through depression myself not too long ago after a traumatic move. I latched onto groups, self-mutilated, took medication, and saw a therapist. Finally, I was able to get through it after a few years. But I am not sure which of my actions helped me in the end. It might have been a combination of them; frighteningly, it might have been none of them. Sometimes following your intuition and remaining patient are the only strategies that are directly available.
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« Reply #14: May 23, 2009, 11:58:30 pm »

Harm none... that includes oneself... does it not?

Simple answer: Yes, as far as my understanding of the matter goes.

Slightly more complex answer: Yes, but a thing is not necessarily harmful simply because it results in physical damage/change to the body. I had a friend who was in the practice of cutting himself. It allowed him to focus in a way that he felt stopped him from committing suicide and which allowed him to engage the rest of his life as valuable and meaningful. Not saying I grok it, but the alternative to 'self harm' in that instance certainly seems worse than the simple act of cutting himself in ways that are not dangerous to life (only really relevant if you happen to be one of those who believe that life at any cost beats death every time, but that's a pretty common view as far as I can tell).
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