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Author Topic: War Magick  (Read 13070 times)
Adeptus
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« Topic Start: April 19, 2009, 07:50:35 pm »

I recently found myself drinking with a friend of mine in a small english pub on the south coast of England and for some reason i became embroiled in an exothermic discussion about war magick, you see although it is well documented that the Nazis utilised varied occult practices to further their aims but little is known about the British occultists directing streams of malevolent influence at the Axis during this time.

This conversation quickly turned to the conviction of my friend that we should be performing magick to further the aims of our nation, in short war magick!
My view on the issue was that any focusing on malevolent tides was inherently a bad idea but i found myself countered by his argument that he would have gladly partaken in magick to fight the Nazis during world war 2 and i found i was unable to rebuke this as i have to admit i would have done the same.

This has posed a dilemma in my consciousness since this time and i'm quite open to anyone who has an opinion on this. In the current climate i feel that it is not as black and white as i perceive the second world war but in that same vein am i just buying into the classic political propaganda of history being written by the victors? I have to admit to being a little perplexed by this and i'm also wondering if (and without appearing prejudice) any say..Americans have been engaged in war magick as America is leading the 'War on terror' and it is more heavily involved in all of these conflicts than any other nation i would like to hear opinions on this.

From my own experience with British occultists/practitioners is that they are very anti-establishment and my queries on this subject have been met with derision and a little distrust it seems that my feelings of patriotism cannot be subjectively aligned with my spirituality in this respect.

I am left wondering if any westerners have thought about this as i am sure that within the faiths in which our nations are currently in conflict would have little compunction about doing the same to us but then perhaps i'm mistaken.
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« Reply #1: April 19, 2009, 08:09:37 pm »

I have to admit to being a little perplexed by this and i'm also wondering if (and without appearing prejudice) any say..Americans have been engaged in war magick as America is leading the 'War on terror' and it is more heavily involved in all of these conflicts than any other nation i would like to hear opinions on this.

Considering that it seems (at least from my experiances on the internet) that most American pagans and occultist are against the War in Iraq (in fact, I think that conflict has always been controversial among many Americans).  I don't know about the War in Afghanistan, though.  And really, when you think about it, most of the war mongers of the previous administration wouldn't do anything as 'evil and Satanic' as practicing witchcraft.

Quote
I am left wondering if any westerners have thought about this as i am sure that within the faiths in which our nations are currently in conflict would have little compunction about doing the same to us but then perhaps i'm mistaken.

I don't think I would ever use magic to influence wars except to maybe prevent them from happening.  Although, given that I'm not above using it to influence elections influencing a war may not be that much of a stretch.

And I don't think magic is permitted in Islam, though I may be mistaken.
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« Reply #2: April 19, 2009, 08:16:52 pm »

I recently found myself drinking with a friend of mine in a small english pub on the south coast of England and for some reason i became embroiled in an exothermic discussion about war magick, you see although it is well documented that the Nazis utilised varied occult practices to further their aims but little is known about the British occultists directing streams of malevolent influence at the Axis during this time.

I wouldn't even touch it. Something as big and unpredictable as war? I'd think that putting myself out there in a "psychic attack" or whatever you want to call it would open myself to some really bad stuff.

I watched a documentary on Hitler once on the history channel (cause that junk is played all the time on that channel) I got curious flipping through the channels so y'know. It was about how he would visit a woman that was "into the occult" (that's pretty much as far into depth on her as they went) to get her to predict political things for him, and she saw him being a "great" leader in the future long before he ever got elected. If that's true I'd say she was pretty damn stupid, and full of herself to lead him onto "awesome greatness in your future" BS, but anyway..

I don't think it's really possible to change a human's will. If they're going to do something like building bombs, or jets, or going to decide on a campaign it's going to take something more concrete to stop them. A nice slab in the face Tongue.
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« Reply #3: April 19, 2009, 08:19:35 pm »

Considering that it seems (at least from my experiances on the internet) that most American pagans and occultist are against the War in Iraq (in fact, I think that conflict has always been controversial among many Americans).  I don't know about the War in Afghanistan, though.  And really, when you think about it, most of the war mongers of the previous administration wouldn't do anything as 'evil and Satanic' as practicing witchcraft.

I don't think I would ever use magic to influence wars except to maybe prevent them from happening.  Although, given that I'm not above using it to influence elections influencing a war may not be that much of a stretch.

And I don't think magic is permitted in Islam, though I may be mistaken.

To be honest i expect most Pagans to be anti war however i still would expect action against something as dark as the Nazi menace mid 20th century and in regard to Muslim magick i think you will find that Solomon is concidered to be a prophet in the Qur'an.
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« Reply #4: April 19, 2009, 08:36:29 pm »

...in regard to Muslim magick i think you will find that Solomon is concidered to be a prophet in the Qur'an.

1. Solomon isn't a prophet in Islam.  The five prophets of that religion are Abraham, Noah, Moses, Jesus and Muhammad.

2. I think Key of Solomon is a Medieval magical text.  IIRC, most texts attributed to him date to that time period.
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« Reply #5: April 19, 2009, 08:40:06 pm »

1. Solomon isn't a prophet in Islam.  The five prophets of that religion are Abraham, Noah, Moses, Jesus and Muhammad.

2. I think Key of Solomon is a Medieval magical text.  IIRC, most texts attributed to him date to that time period.
As with any question regarding the behavior of Muslims in relation to authorized practices, theological decisions begin by consulting the Qur’an. The second chapter introduces an explanation for the introduction of magic into the world:

They followed what the evil ones gave out (falsely) against the power of Solomon: the blasphemers were, not Solomon, but the evil ones, teaching men magic, and such things as came down at Babylon to the angels Harut and Marut. But neither of these taught anyone (such things) without saying: “We are only for trial; so do not blaspheme.” They learned from them the means to sow discord between man and wife. But they could not thus harm anyone except by Allah’s permission.

And they learned what harmed them, not what profited them. And they knew that the buyers of (magic) would have no share in the happiness of the Hereafter. And vile was the price for which they did sell their souls, if they but knew! (Q 2:102).
Though it presents a generally contemptuous attitude towards magic. It distinguishes between apparent magic (miracles sanctioned by Allah) and real magic. The first is that used by Solomon who, being a prophet of Allah, is assumed to have used miraculous powers by Allah’s blessing.[20] The second form is the magic that was taught by the “evil ones,” or al-shayatin. Al-shayatin has two meanings; the first is similar to the Christian Satan. The second meaning, which is the one used here, refers to a djinn of superior power.[21] The al-shayatin taught knowledge of evil and “pretended to force the laws of nature and the will of Allah
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« Reply #6: April 19, 2009, 08:43:19 pm »

1. Solomon isn't a prophet in Islam.  The five prophets of that religion are Abraham, Noah, Moses, Jesus and Muhammad.

2. I think Key of Solomon is a Medieval magical text.  IIRC, most texts attributed to him date to that time period.
Though i will accept that the key of Solomon is most definately of medieval in origin stories about Solomon and his prowess appear in the old testament in his aspect of the son of David.
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« Reply #7: April 19, 2009, 08:51:59 pm »

1. Solomon isn't a prophet in Islam.  The five prophets of that religion are Abraham, Noah, Moses, Jesus and Muhammad.

2. I think Key of Solomon is a Medieval magical text.  IIRC, most texts attributed to him date to that time period.

Perhaps this may clarify your confusion about the muslim definition of a prophet http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Prophets_of_Islam
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« Reply #8: April 19, 2009, 10:36:52 pm »

My view on the issue was that any focusing on malevolent tides was inherently a bad idea but i found myself countered by his argument that he would have gladly partaken in magick to fight the Nazis during world war 2 and i found i was unable to rebuke this as i have to admit i would have done the same.

Magic to defend yourself/counterattack when attacked does not strike me as immoral. Of course, I'm a Hellenic Pagan whose personal patron is Athena.  That said, I've seen no reason to work magic to aid America's current war in Iraq.  Afghanistan could be a different story, but what Afghanistan needs is troops and money -- that have been wasted in Iraq.  Magical workings against terrorists seem quite moral to be.
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« Reply #9: April 20, 2009, 04:44:27 am »


I'm going to take another tack,and suggest that claiming to engage in war magic is a way of boosting one's ego, and bragging about being involved in some titanic cosmic struggle.
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« Reply #10: April 20, 2009, 07:20:23 am »

I'm going to take another tack,and suggest that claiming to engage in war magic is a way of boosting one's ego, and bragging about being involved in some titanic cosmic struggle.

Although i do appreciate that opinion as we all know the occult community is rife with ego's of gargantuan proportions i'm not sure if this is always the case, the way i see it everyone has their own part to play when your country is at war now before everyone gets heated about this not being a real war i also understand that its not the same situation as WW2 whereby British occultists viewed themselves vulnerable to invasion, that said if British soil where threatened i wouldn't have any problems with performing magick in aid of that indeed as a civilian working for the British Army periodically with respect to systems analysis i feel i would be far more useful at a desk than in any group working. 

When a close friend of mine was posted to Afghanistan i did perform some protective magick on his behalf not from any egotistical standpoint as i didn't tell him i'd done it (he's far to practical to believe in magick!) but just because i felt a little useless he and his wife were very close to my family and i did have real fears for his safety, as it was he came back unharmed and whether any magick was to play in that its far more likely that its just because he's a bloody good soldier the fact remained that i felt better and so did his wife.

Although this is slightly off topic i was more interested in what people thought about the use of malevolent tides being used during wars, personally i'm a little sceptical on many levels not withstanding things like the Wiccan reed, karma, tikoon or whatever you want to call it.

My only experiance of personally indulging in what i think of as dark magick the person had a serious car accident and i suffered a backlash, or so i thought at the time looking back it could have been coincidence and the backlash was simply a matter of my perception, i certainly didn't expect the magick to work as it did.

Since then my opinion on dark or black magick has softened and i feel if i'm justified why shouldn't i use what i have learned over the years to fight back!
If i did perform any malevolent tide magick to aid British troops i certainly wouldn't go around bragging about it but i do feel that it is sometimes difficult to align patriotism and my belief system.
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« Reply #11: April 20, 2009, 07:38:00 am »

Although i do appreciate that opinion as we all know the occult community is rife with ego's of gargantuan proportions i'm not sure if this is always the case, the way i see it everyone has their own part to play when your country is at war

Really?  My country is in a quasi-war and all I'm doing is complaining about it every chance I get. 

Quote
When a close friend of mine was posted to Afghanistan i did perform some protective magick on his behalf not from any egotistical standpoint as i didn't tell him i'd done it (he's far to practical to believe in magick!) but just because i felt a little useless he and his wife were very close to my family and i did have real fears for his safety, as it was he came back unharmed and whether any magick was to play in that its far more likely that its just because he's a bloody good soldier the fact remained that i felt better and so did his wife.

And how can you be sure that he came back okay because of any hocus-pocus you did?  Not every soldier comes home missing a limb so it very well could have been a coincidence.
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« Reply #12: April 20, 2009, 07:43:12 am »

And how can you be sure that he came back okay because of any hocus-pocus you did?  Not every soldier comes home missing a limb so it very well could have been a coincidence.

I think he said that, but I'm not sure.
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« Reply #13: April 20, 2009, 10:00:27 am »

To be honest i expect most Pagans to be anti war

Why do you expect this?
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« Reply #14: April 20, 2009, 10:30:39 am »



 I have to admit to being a little perplexed by this and i'm also wondering if (and without appearing prejudice) any say..Americans have been engaged in war magick as America is leading the 'War on terror' and it is more heavily involved in all of these conflicts than any other nation i would like to hear opinions on this.

Since I feel everyone has fully answered the rest of your questions regarding magical aspects of what you are talking about, I would like to address this part of your statement.  It is true that the American Government is mostly filled with Freemasons which we all know do practice magic and high forms of the Quabala (or however you spell it) and Druidism, as well as other magics.  But as far as our government practicing magic to win wars...probably not...it is generally over run with stuffy burocrats who don't believe in hokie pokie magic so they would call it. Now some of the masons may go as far as to do divination.  That I do believe.  But do I believe that they are doing rituals no because I have more faith that if they were, we would be winning more wars than we are and that they wouldn't have put such a baffoon such as Bush in power to lead them.  And yes they are the shadow government. And yes I am a slight conspericy theorist.  Most Educated Americans and all most all of my friends HATE the war in Iraq and Afghanistan...I could go on and on about different conspericy theories but you didn't ask for that.  The American Government No longer represents the people I hope that the rest of the world can see this now.  The people of the Americas really would love to be in isolation until we could get our shit together and rebuild our factories and our economy and stop helping others until we can help our selves but our government has swelled with power and is beyond the peoples grasp.  There is even talk amongst states of sucession (or however or spell it) so as you can see America is in turmoil and will probably plunge into civil war soon if things do not turn around soon!
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