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Author Topic: War Magick  (Read 13071 times)
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« Reply #15: April 20, 2009, 01:50:36 pm »

Why do you expect this?
I am only drawing on my own experience and the views of those of my friends and associates who are pagan, all of whom are anti-war and many of them are actively so, perhaps the statement i made was a little sweeping but i am interested in the Hellenic view point in this respect as i'm not 100% sure but i think they don't hold to any law of return (though its likely i've misunderstood this lol).
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« Reply #16: April 20, 2009, 01:58:47 pm »

the Hellenic view point in this respect as i'm not 100% sure but i think they don't hold to any law of return (though its likely i've misunderstood this lol).

If we do, it's news to me.
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« Reply #17: April 20, 2009, 02:10:07 pm »

I am only drawing on my own experience and the views of those of my friends and associates who are pagan, all of whom are anti-war and many of them are actively so, perhaps the statement i made was a little sweeping but i am interested in the Hellenic view point in this respect as i'm not 100% sure but i think they don't hold to any law of return (though its likely i've misunderstood this lol).

Blargh, I hit "post" too early.  The pro-war/anti-war issue amongst Hellenics is not something I have a lot of experience with, but...  Considering that we have at least two deities who are concerned with war and fighting, by which I don't mean preventing it, I would be highly surprised to find a general anti-war disposition among the Hellenic community.  I would more expect to maybe find that it's important to make sure that the war is being fought for the right reasons. 

But I may be way off here.  As I said, I've got little personal experience with the issue, so I'm mostly guessing.  (And of course you have to keep in mind that there will be variation from individual to individual.  One Hellenic may be strongly anti-war, but that doesn't necessarily mean we all are, for example.)

I do think, based on my years here, that there is sometimes a tendency for Pagans as a group to lean toward the end of the socio-political scale that is associated with things like being anti-war.  However, again, that doesn't mean that every individual Pagan (or even every Pagan religion) is necessarily pacifist.
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« Reply #18: April 20, 2009, 02:22:51 pm »

My view on the issue was that any focusing on malevolent tides was inherently a bad idea but i found myself countered by his argument that he would have gladly partaken in magick to fight the Nazis during world war 2 and i found i was unable to rebuke this as i have to admit i would have done the same.

I think trying to influence something so huge with magickal means would be a lot like dropping a pebble into the sea. I'm sure people tried doing what they could at the time. But personally, I'd be inclined to focus any magick on things more personal- protection of loved ones fighting, and since you're discussing WW2, things like influencing a Victory Garden to grow well, forms of magick intended to draw the things I or my loved ones need, protect my home (especially if I was in an air-raid area), or for a lot of other things I can think of. But I think I'd leave the war magick to those who truly know war, engage in it, and who actually face the life and death decisions that come with war almost every moment of the day.

It is true that the American Government is mostly filled with Freemasons which we all know do practice magic and high forms of the Quabala (or however you spell it) and Druidism, as well as other magics.

You'd have to be a conspiracy-believer to believe that. Which is not an insult- the facts if you know Freemasons personally do not support this idea of an Illuminati-like presence, and to say "It is true..." is just making a statement you can't really support. You could say it's what you believe to be true in spite of evidence to the contrary, based on evidence you have yourself seen. But a blanket "it is true' statement does not fit here.

My ex-fiance's family are Masons going back generations. I can tell you straight out it is just not what the movies or conspiracy books make it out to seem. They don't consider what they do to be magick and most of them are pretty conservative spiritually, Christians (please understand when I say this, I am not trying to generalize Christians or others but pointing out rather that the Masons I've met are for the most part Christian *and* conservative spiritually- the fact that they're Masons is the wildest thing they'd ever do, and a lot of their own churches don't understand) and other very mainstream religions for the most part. What you read of Freemasonry anywhere outside their own literature is going to be full of dubious 'research' supposedly based on truth, and created to sell books, not the truth about what is basically a philanthropic organization that happens to have rituals based in geometry and happens to require that you believe in a supreme deity. Even the tiniest bits of information in books about things like symbols are very often wrong and the authors are going by second-hand research and not talking to the Freemasons themselves. Their sister organization, Eastern Star, is also very conservative in general, and all their rituals are based on characters from the bible and lessons therein. You will not find either group indulging in anything they don't consider Abrahamic in origin, really, unless you consider the geometry involved to not be. If you're so convinced they're something else, you yourself can join. Anyone can request to join, they're so secret, their rituals are in books in libraries (put out by the Masons of course). Every Freemason I've ever met is happy to discuss it and they often wear their Compass/G symbols in public so that they're known. It's not just not the big secret society people want to believe it is. And yes, there are probably members of government involved in Freemasonry, it is a very old organization that very often grows through family and friendship connections, like any organization.

But of course people who want to believe that the Freemasons are a big, secret, shadow organization won't believe anything else, and you could personally know ten Masons and still be convinced they're only telling you what they want you to know. I prefer to go by personal experience with these people.
« Last Edit: April 20, 2009, 02:25:40 pm by nightfae, Reason: spelling error » Logged
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« Reply #19: April 20, 2009, 03:03:28 pm »

Anyone can request to join, they're so secret, their rituals are in books in libraries (put out by the Masons of course). Every Freemason I've ever met is happy to discuss it and they often wear their Compass/G symbols in public so that they're known. It's not just not the big secret society people want to believe it is. And yes, there are probably members of government involved in Freemasonry, it is a very old organization that very often grows through family and friendship connections, like any organization.

But of course people who want to believe that the Freemasons are a big, secret, shadow organization won't believe anything else, and you could personally know ten Masons and still be convinced they're only telling you what they want you to know. I prefer to go by personal experience with these people.

And this is why I don't put any stock into conspiracy theories involving the Freemasons.  If they were this big, secret organization that secretly run the government, would they be this open?  For that matter, would we even know about them at all?
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« Reply #20: April 20, 2009, 03:09:23 pm »



You'd have to be a conspiracy-believer to believe that. Which is not an insult-

hey...you got me..I can't help my self...I do love a good conspiracy...but...

the facts if you know Freemasons personally

which I do know one...and she was sworn to keep certain secrets...and certain parts of their rituals secret as well...so...the head starts spinning with all sorts of ideas to fill in the blanks...but you are right...I should not have said "it is true"....
but like I said...I do know one personally...now..does she claim that they are the shadow government..no..but I do.  I try to fill in the blanks with what she won't tell me the best I can and try to read between the lines in books the best I can...it's all one can do no? Wink I hope I did not offend you because you wrote such a passion filled paragraph about it...didn't mean to piss anyone off...


« Last Edit: April 20, 2009, 03:12:57 pm by unbendingwill » Logged
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« Reply #21: April 20, 2009, 03:09:58 pm »

For that matter, would we even know about them at all?

The most telling point in my book!
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« Reply #22: April 20, 2009, 05:05:25 pm »



So...she doesn't tell you stuff ----> secret government?
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« Reply #23: April 20, 2009, 05:26:37 pm »

It is true that the American Government is mostly filled with Freemasons which we all know do practice magic and high forms of the Quabala (or however you spell it) and Druidism, as well as other magics. 

We all know Freemasons practice magic?  Unfortunately, we do not all know this because it simply isn't true. This is the stuff of Anti-Masonic propaganda and pseudo-occult conspiracy theories.
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« Reply #24: April 20, 2009, 05:35:02 pm »

I am only drawing on my own experience and the views of those of my friends and associates who are pagan, all of whom are anti-war and many of them are actively so...

Not all Pagans are totally against war (although they may not be for all wars). There are a good number of Pagans, even Wiccans, in the US military, for example.

Quote
...perhaps the statement i made was a little sweeping but i am interested in the Hellenic view point in this respect as i'm not 100% sure but i think they don't hold to any law of return (though its likely i've misunderstood this lol).

You are correct. Hellenic Pagans generally do not believe in the the Law of Returns (other than in its "what goes around, come around" form) nor do they have any form of the Rede in their moral system.  Here is a link to an article on Hellenic Ethics.
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« Reply #25: April 20, 2009, 05:48:13 pm »



Does the war issue really make any difference?

If a person believes that they are able to work magic that has significant impact on the external world, surely the question to be asked in relation to any particular working should be "Is this act in accordance with the ideals and morals by which I choose to live my life?". There may also be an aspect of "Would the deity(ies) of my professed faith approve of this act?" if the individaul has religious convictions to accompany their magical ones. I really can't see that war of itself makes much of a difference.

To my mind, the distinction between (for example) WW2 and Iraq might be better viewed as:

WW2 = protect home soil and immediate safety
Iraq = attack others for personal gain'

This is obviosuly a more black-and-white statement than the complexity of the real world, but it illustrates the point, I believe.
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« Reply #26: April 20, 2009, 06:06:37 pm »



To my mind, the distinction between (for example) WW2 and Iraq might be better viewed as:

WW2 = protect home soil and immediate safety
Iraq = attack others for personal gain'

This is obviosuly a more black-and-white statement than the complexity of the real world, but it illustrates the point, I believe.

It illustrates the point quite well.  This is how many people in the US feel about it too, so why would they help unless they were personally gaining?  I know I have gained nothing from the Iraq war.
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« Reply #27: April 20, 2009, 06:15:15 pm »

so why would they help unless they were personally gaining?

I suspect that this was rhetorical, but just in case...

There can be many reasons other than personal gain for supporting one's nation in a war of aggression (patriotism, fear, loyalty to family tradition, etc.). However, if one's nation is involved in a war of aggression *that you feel is morally wrong*, then it is equally wrong to participate in any act that furthers that war, regardless of whether the act is a magical or mundane. Following this line though I could feel that the war of aggression is morally wrong, but that my patriotism was the higher moral ideal and so I may participate mundanely or magically, despite my views on the particular war.
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« Reply #28: April 20, 2009, 06:21:17 pm »

I suspect that this was rhetorical, but just in case...

There can be many reasons other than personal gain for supporting one's nation in a war of aggression (patriotism, fear, loyalty to family tradition, etc.). However, if one's nation is involved in a war of aggression *that you feel is morally wrong*, then it is equally wrong to participate in any act that furthers that war, regardless of whether the act is a magical or mundane. Following this line though I could feel that the war of aggression is morally wrong, but that my patriotism was the higher moral ideal and so I may participate mundanely or magically, despite my views on the particular war.

If you agree with the war (as I apparently do NOT) then helping out of patriotism would have an emotional 'reward' at least.  I think my disconnect here is that I have never been unquestioningly patriotic.  So if I felt the war was unacceptable, patriotism would never win over what I felt was morally right.  Good thing I was never in the military!
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« Reply #29: April 20, 2009, 07:13:02 pm »

If you agree with the war (as I apparently do NOT) then helping out of patriotism would have an emotional 'reward' at least.  I think my disconnect here is that I have never been unquestioningly patriotic.  So if I felt the war was unacceptable, patriotism would never win over what I felt was morally right.  Good thing I was never in the military!

Sorry if I poorly expressed myself; you did not give the impression at any point that you were in favour of the war. I can see what you mean on the patriotism front; I was just trying to find a principle that some people might place above the 'don't attack other people' principle.
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