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Author Topic: Mixing Religions  (Read 15247 times)
TisiphoneSeraph
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« Reply #30: May 04, 2009, 07:16:05 pm »

People do a lot of things, that doesn't mean it is a good idea.

Yes that is true. I was refering more to the pissing various gods off part.

Plus a lot of people I've talked to who hold to mixed pantheons say they don't find it conflicting. I don't think it would be completely blended but who expects it to be?
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TisiphoneSeraph
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« Reply #31: May 04, 2009, 07:18:47 pm »

I'm not really one for mixing religions so much myself- practicing two in parallel, but mixing two, or mixing bits and pieces from anywher and everywhere, I just can't do that.

How do you practice two in parallel? How do you keep them separate? What would it mean for you to combine them?
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« Reply #32: May 04, 2009, 09:51:28 pm »

How do you feel about mixing religions? Do you feel that something is lost when they are mixed or are they more powerful? How do major (or minor) world religions affect your path?

As I begin learning more and more about world religions, I find a lot of similarities and truths in them, but I can't except any of them wholesale. Thoughts?



This is an important question for me right now. There was a time I took issue with mixing religions and tried my best to stay within the parameters of whatever I was studying at the time.

In the last couple of years though, I feel like it means more and is more sacred to me to follow my intuition to find what religions or mix of them suits me and the spiritual life I'd like to lead. I've come to believe that I can trust what I feel and can use that to lead me to what I need to learn.

Right now I'm still framing what exactly this means for me but I'm fairly solid in knowing that I'll wind up pulling from a lot of traditions and have a lot of learning in store.
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« Reply #33: May 12, 2009, 03:10:14 pm »

In some ways Paganism is naturally eclectic.

Japanese people have one of the most advanced Pagan religions in the world right now. One that needs no reconstruction.
And they frequently mix their religion with even non-Pagan ones.

Shinto has taken heavy influence from Taoism and Buddhism, and even brought more influence in the future.
While these things were originally foreign to the Japanese folk collection.

And just like all animism, it's not like believing in ghosts . Shintoists merely define themselves by focus, which is usually as local and the spirituality of their very town.
But it's not unusual for them to respect spiritual matter from other towns such as paying respect at Amaterasu shrine, or even the yousei and gods of other countries.

The only reason Japan people take influence modernly from things like Christianity, is because of heavy Western influence in general.
The very concept of Christianity is very foreign to Japanese people. Such as the idea of converting. Or there being one true God.
Whereas they see things from an animist perspective of respecting spirits and especially gods wherever they might be.
That a Christian religion tells things like "I am the ONLY" one, is a very alien concept to them.

Animism is an interesting thing. I mean obviously if you believe YOUR country has ghosts and spirits, you're not going to naturally think NO OTHER COUNTRY has ghosts and spirits. Japan even sometimes used the name for other spirits that were non-Japanese, yousei. And even this distinction is not always made.

The idea of a "one religion" can be seen as a more Abrahamic thing and not Pagan thing. I think living Pagan models today such as Taoism, Buddhism, Shinto, Siberian Shamanism, and so forth, can help us see and as to how to put our own Neo-Pagan spirituality into perspective.

And if you want to look at ancient Europe, just look at how respective the Greco-Romans were to the existence of other gods.

Though this eclectic perspective may just be my Pantheistic perspective.
I look at the various forms of Paganism to find some kind of Pantheistic truth.
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« Reply #34: May 13, 2009, 08:01:39 pm »

In some ways Paganism is naturally eclectic.

Animism is an interesting thing. I mean obviously if you believe YOUR country has ghosts and spirits, you're not going to naturally think NO OTHER COUNTRY has ghosts and spirits. Japan even sometimes used the name for other spirits that were non-Japanese, yousei. And even this distinction is not always made.

The idea of a "one religion" can be seen as a more Abrahamic thing and not Pagan thing. I think living Pagan models today such as Taoism, Buddhism, Shinto, Siberian Shamanism, and so forth, can help us see and as to how to put our own Neo-Pagan spirituality into perspective.

Yes, I've been studying the histories of Buddhism and Taoism and the eclecticism of the East is deeply rooted. I'm tempted to suggest that anyone who needs license (i.e., a stamp of approval) to mix things up need only give the respective entries on Wikipedia a quick read.

I also think you're quite right in your estimation that the whole question can only be framed in an Abrahamic context. Or, perhaps I should say, "would only be framed...". I'm not aware, in my somewhat limited studies, of any other gods who declare, "Thou shall not hedge your bets." Wink


In reference to Heartshadow's comment about the "sparkly bits", I think there are stages in spiritual development, and in the early states one takes things literally and follows their leaders' interpretations closely. Later, one begins to have insights and starts to see more deeply into things. I suspect most people  on the Cauldron fall into this latter category. The discussion here tends to be deep and dry, and while there are gems to be found, those panning for quick answers are most likely to move on. Thus, it is with some confidence I say here, "Listen closely, and trust your heart. In very pragmatic terms, if it works for you, it works." (yes, there's an implication here that I've met people to whom I'd counsel, "Stick to the book and follow your Priest.")


So, TisiphoneSeraph, to more directly address your original questions, I come from a lineage that swallows up everything in its path and a wise woman once said, 'takes what it needs and leaves the rest'. I feel that combining the best of each makes the core stronger, and more accessible.

In my personal belief system, it is exactly the similarities you mention that I take as Truth. I figure if three Enlightened Beings all agree, it's likely right.
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« Reply #35: May 14, 2009, 09:03:50 pm »

How do you feel about mixing religions? Do you feel that something is lost when they are mixed or are they more powerful? How do major (or minor) world religions affect your path?

As I begin learning more and more about world religions, I find a lot of similarities and truths in them, but I can't except any of them wholesale. Thoughts?

I normally lurk but I feel the need to comment briefly on a few things just to provide some food for thought.

First is the repeated argument for a historical antecedent to blended religions. The “such and such culture adopted other gods/goddesses/practices so it is okay for me to do it.” The situation in which other cultures tended to adopt aspects of other religions was very different in the historical context than in the modern Western context. Religious mergers, so to speak, occurred usually after economical or military takeovers of a region. (On rare occasions it was done as a purely political move.) Most the major examples you can think of fall into those categories. Rome commonly adopted the deities of conquered areas as lesser deities while placing their gods/goddesses in higher positions. Egypt absorbed deities in similar ways, from economic relationships and military conquering. Rome especially had a habit of installing a deity as a matter of political recourse and even offered to deify both Yahweh and Jesus at different times for political reasons.

The exception to this is cult patterns, such at the Cult of Isis, where a deity would strike a cord culturally and succeed. However even in these cases they were notorious for being outlawed because they tended to emphasis their cult figure to the exclusion of all others. This functioned more as organizations of exclusion over and against inclusion and as such are not an analogous model.

There is no direct relationship between the historical practice of deity eclecticism and modern Western religious eclecticism. Modern Western Eclecticism has its roots far more firmly in the Transcendentalist movement, the development of Higher Biblical Criticism, and American individualism/self-empowerment. The unique situation in Europe and America during the late 19th century where the intellectual elite had the ability to examine the religious documentation of a variety of world religions and process them without any body overseeing them gave a unique rise to spiritual eclecticism. If you get bored look into the persons associated with the Transcendentalist Club. There is an early convert to Baha'i, Thoreau's declarations of being a yogi, and extensive essays on the value of non-Western religions. American individualism and intellectualism laid the foundation for modern religious eclecticism, not some grand historical allusions to the past. Also, Higher Biblical Criticism opened the way for similar criticism of other religious texts and the development of the entire field of comparative religious studies. As has already been noted the availability of more religious texts and information has made it easier to explore, and thus incorporate, religions that might otherwise have been unavailable to earlier generations. To not even get into the changes in theology that have developed in the predominate Western religious institutes that have also facilitated this (such as the move from ecumenical dialog to interfaith dialog.)

Second, on the actual matter of mixing religions.

The phenomena of eclecticism in Western culture is something of intense debate (among some academics at least). The model I have outlined above (about Transcendentalist roots) is one of the more widely accepted models and the one I find most convincing about this development (also known as seeker spirituality). It is not limited to the pagan movement in the slightest and I think some useful comparisons can be made to outside sources.

One of the most common features in the rising change of Western religious expression is a move from institutional religions that are static and viewed as timeless to fluid and changing institutions. For example, the rhetoric common in Emerging Church Christianity is to make a “Christianity for this age” or a “Christianity for now”, not a timeless example of Christian doctrine but one that is constrained to the time and place that it is active in. This can mean a lot of things, from incorporating multi-cultural religious expression, to the altering of traditional Christian practices, to changes in theology to accommodate the “modern age”.
I use this example because I think that the Emerging Church and the pagan movement share a similar core idea and that is to make a religious movement that is relevant to each individual person. The Emerging Church movement allows members to chose to partake in the sacrament of communion or not to. Traditionally, refusal to do so would have marked one as not of the movement, now those borders are erased. Much of paganism functions similarly, the traditional theological borders are relaxed or out-right removed to accommodate the modern age. Like the Emerging Church movement this can be for theological reason, experiential reasons, or simply practical reasons. Persons might have had a religious experience that leads them to consider multiple traditions, a coven or community might have various backgrounds it needs to accommodate, or the traditional theology simply might be inadequate.

However, like the Emerging Church questions need to be addressed when going down that path. One is the theological question. If I am mixing religions what does that mean for the religions I am a part of? Am I sacrificing healthy theology for the sake of convenience or whim? Does my theology have room for this or do I need to seriously reevaluate what is important in my understanding? How will this change my practices and what I consider to be acceptable practice in myself and others? So on and so forth. While it is hard (if not impossible) to argue with other people's religious experiences and I would not venture to say anyone's experiences are wrong some situations are difficult to make sense of. Such as the oft cited Christo-paganism. There is a lot of theological work to be done there to make that work and I rarely see it done.

Ultimately it is a personal decision. I would say that for Hard Polytheist it seems theologically poorly advised. For Soft Polytheists the issue is lessened but not removed. For non-theist, pantheist, etc the point is almost moot. When incorporating large, established religions such as Christianity, Judaism, Buddhism, Islam, Hinduism, etc the matter is much more difficult and I would personally say, save maybe Hinduism, all of those religions are NOT capable of a theologically sound blending.
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« Reply #36: May 15, 2009, 02:08:23 am »

The more a person looks on everything as divine-
more divine than it is in itself-
the more will God be pleased.

A person works in a stable.
That person has a Breakthrough.
What does he do?
He returns to work in the stable.

-Meister Eckhart.

To the untrained eye, it might appear that you are contradicting me, but I pointed to the East for the very reason you cite Western examples.

And, while I also agree with you about theology, having read a fair portion of the posts here, I'm not convinced the average member of The Cauldron is looking for theology. I think most here would be much happier with the experience, rather than the knowledge, of Meister Eckhart.

The again, it is said, "If your only tool is a hammer, everything looks like a nail."  You are a theologian, I am a mystic. Wink


I'm not looking for a rebuttal, feel free to return to your lurking. I think those that are concerned with theology will take your words to heart (at least, I hope they do). In any event, I wish you good fortune in your ministry. For whatever it's worth, I feel compelled to tell you "It's always darkest before the dawn." (an old adage from someone that obviously never stayed up all night).

Keep the faith, and blessed be.
Sandi

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« Reply #37: May 16, 2009, 08:35:10 pm »

To the untrained eye, it might appear that you are contradicting me, but I pointed to the East for the very reason you cite Western examples.

And, while I also agree with you about theology, having read a fair portion of the posts here, I'm not convinced the average member of The Cauldron is looking for theology. I think most here would be much happier with the experience, rather than the knowledge, of Meister Eckhart.

The again, it is said, "If your only tool is a hammer, everything looks like a nail."  You are a theologian, I am a mystic. Wink


I'm not looking for a rebuttal, feel free to return to your lurking. I think those that are concerned with theology will take your words to heart (at least, I hope they do). In any event, I wish you good fortune in your ministry. For whatever it's worth, I feel compelled to tell you "It's always darkest before the dawn." (an old adage from someone that obviously never stayed up all night).

Keep the faith, and blessed be.
Sandi


Eastern thought is very different than Western thought so I was somewhat careful to avoid getting into Eastern thinking. This is partially because most of the people on this board do not operate in an Eastern mindset, but a Western one. Since Eastern thought operates so differently it would be hard to incorporate this concept of mixing pantheons to Eastern thought. But I think that would actually be a different thread so I'll leave that be.

I think you are right that most people are not looking for a theology but there needs to be a point recognized here and that is this. There is no practicing a religion without theology. Religious practice, by its very nature, demands theology. Even if we do not put it into words all of our choices and actions have a theology behind them. My point that I was trying to make, and perhaps made to densely, is that people need to be aware of this. When people begin mixing pantheons they are making a theological statement and to often I feel that goes unobserved, let alone considered. Even experience, a primary motivator of many people on this forum and among most pagan movements, speaks a theology and again, that needs to be acknowledged and considered.

You are right that I am a theologian, that is my field of academic study and interest but I am also a mystic. My personal religious practice is deeply mystic and I read deeply and broadly of mystical traditions and cultivate some of their practices. As such, I am no stranger to experience or the theological implications therein. You noted my sig, which is a cite from one of Meister Eckhart's sermons (forgive me as I forget which one right now). In the Christian tradition he is perhaps one of the better examples of this idea of reflection on experience to find the underlying theology. And though his theology was considered heterodox his works have influenced the writings of Christian and Muslim mystic since the Middle Ages.

I think the general pagan reluctance to engage in theology is a problem only because it inhibits the development of the movement as being a respected and welcome addition to American society (Europe is different in this regard and varies by country). Maybe I am wrong but it seems to me that until pagans are willing to consider their theology the road to acceptance will be slower and more difficult. There is no need for everyone to be theologians, per se, but like any religion practitioners should be aware of the ramifications of what they think.

I hope that clarifies what I meant.
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The more a person looks on everything as divine-
more divine than it is in itself-
the more will God be pleased.

A person works in a stable.
That person has a Breakthrough.
What does he do?
He returns to work in the stable.

-Meister Eckhart
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« Reply #38: May 17, 2009, 08:37:02 am »

And, while I also agree with you about theology, having read a fair portion of the posts here, I'm not convinced the average member of The Cauldron is looking for theology. I think most here would be much happier with the experience, rather than the knowledge, of Meister Eckhart.

You might be surprised. Most of the regulars here like to have the knowledge as well as the experience. Many of the regulars are also more interested in theology than the average Pagan seems to be -- perhaps because many of the regulars have followed their particular Pagan religion for a long enough time that they have the experiences and have theological questions that have developed from them.
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« Reply #39: May 17, 2009, 05:42:04 pm »

You might be surprised. Most of the regulars here like to have the knowledge as well as the experience. Many of the regulars are also more interested in theology than the average Pagan seems to be -- perhaps because many of the regulars have followed their particular Pagan religion for a long enough time that they have the experiences and have theological questions that have developed from them.
I'd agree.  From my point of view, experience and theology are very much complementary.  While you can achieve some results from just one of those areas, I think there are questions that are far better suited to one or the other.

Neither "deeds not words" nor "words not deeds" but "deeds and words".
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« Reply #40: May 17, 2009, 06:14:08 pm »

I'd agree.  From my point of view, experience and theology are very much complementary. 

Theology is something of a "dirty word" in US Paganism. I've never understood why.
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« Reply #41: May 18, 2009, 08:09:37 am »

You might be surprised. Most of the regulars here like to have the knowledge as well as the experience. Many of the regulars are also more interested in theology than the average Pagan seems to be.

In this instance, I would be happy to be wrong.


And, on reflection, my "here" is limited to the open portion of the forums to which I can reply. It's a tad frustrating to read a thread to which I cannot reply, so I don't.  Wink
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« Reply #42: May 18, 2009, 08:31:43 am »

And, on reflection, my "here" is limited to the open portion of the forums to which I can reply. It's a tad frustrating to read a thread to which I cannot reply, so I don't.  Wink

Have you read How To Become a Full Member?
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« Reply #43: May 18, 2009, 08:50:19 am »


Yes, but thank you for the reminder. I'm not a Companion member yet, and I'm not sure I've made the requisite 15 "good solid, substantive posts". Since I run a SMF board myself, I understand and have great respect for the system you've put in place, and would rather err on the side of caution before applying.
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« Reply #44: May 23, 2009, 11:07:24 pm »

How do you feel about mixing religions? Do you feel that something is lost when they are mixed or are they more powerful?

Hmm... This question is more complicated than it first appears! I basically tend to take a middle perspective.

On the one hand, I think mixing religions can be more powerful because it enables individuals to choose those aspects of various faiths that speak to them the most. If only 5% of a certain religion's beliefs resonate with a person, they do not have to go along with the other 95% just to get those few benefits. On the other hand, I also think that mixing religions creates problems because it makes it very difficult for individuals to truly get into the heartfelt core of any tradition. When people mix faiths, they often do so on a superficial level and do not spend enough time exploring the depths and intricacies of any of the faiths from which they draw.

Overall, then, I think people should just use common sense when mixing religions. There is no need to follow a single tradition wholeheartedly, and, as you pointed out, many traditions share things in common that might illuminate even further when mixed. However, this is no excuse to not try to get to the heart of each faith explored; otherwise, any truly valuable benefits will be lost. I think it is probably up to each individual to discover for themselves where this actual balance is.
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