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Author Topic: Tolerance  (Read 21841 times)
dragonfly_high
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« Reply #45: May 09, 2009, 10:30:46 am »

*nods* my former college went completely smoke - free -- and I think that was TOTALLY the wrong choice.

Because now people that want to smoke have NO reason to go to a designated area (and there were quite a few outside, though none inside as far as I remember) or even to wait to go outside.  So you're asking people to either A) not smoke for an entire day (not reasonable for addicts!) or B) break the rules and smoke wherever they are.

Which do you think is likely to happen?  And I can't even blame them for B - even though it's WAY worse for me.

Ideology is great and all, but practicality HAS to win or it's just being stupid.  In my EVER so humble opinion.

The college I go to is smoke free too, but smokers can go to their cars and smoke.  The reason is, even though the cars are on school property, the cars themselves are private property and the school can't do anything about smokers smoking in them.  Major pain in the ass, lol, parking spots are a premium.  Do you know how frustrating it is, you're waiting for the person in the car to leave their spot and then realise they are smoking?  Cheesy  They used to be allowed to smoke outside the doors, they had a bench, overhang and a good size ashtray.  I saw no problem with that. 
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« Reply #46: May 09, 2009, 06:40:29 pm »

Alcohol is also a legal addiction, but I don't see anyone advocating that we allow beer breaks because people can't go that long without a drink.  Also smokers take many more breaks than non-addicts, and come to work smelling a way that would get non-addicts written up for hygiene issues.

Alcohol withdrawal does not start 30 seconds after your last drink, nicotine withdrawal does. Alcohol withdrawal takes hours or days to significantly affect mental function or physical distress levels, nicotine withdrawal takes less than an hour for most addicts (not sure where I read that (about the <1hr), but it fits with the rest of what I know about nicotine addiction). They are quite different addictions. If alcohol addiction had the same properties as nicotine addiction (or even if it were as strongly physically addictive as nicotine), I would certainly argue to allow alcoholics to partake in sufficient alcohol to enable them to function as a non-addict would (obviously, that doesn't license any level of drunkenness in the workplace).

On the break thing, I have now been involved in two studies in large government workplaces looking at time lost due to smoke breaks vs time lost 'at the water cooler'. In both instances smokers spent less time on breaks, talked about more directly work-related matters than non-smokers engaged in water cooler conversations, made less use of office facilities and time for personal matters like telephone conversations and online banking etc.. It seems that the smokers were so concerned about the accusation of low productivity that they self-policed and were actually more productive than the non-smokers, who didn't sem to think about productivity in realtion to their non-work activities in the workplace. None of this is necessarily universal, I just thought it might be interesting.
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« Reply #47: May 09, 2009, 06:43:12 pm »

I saw no problem with that.

Nor would most smokers I suspect. I haven't heard anyone agitating to be allowed to smoke indoors in a long time. It's just not safe for others. It's a shame the school decided to force them to breath secondary smoke in an enclosed space instead. Still, I suppose killing the smokers faster makes the militant non-smokers feel better. Just retribution and all that (no, nto being serious, just sarcastic - it's the sort of policy that gets under my skin).
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"If Michelangelo had been straight, the Sistine Chapel would have been wallpapered" Robin Tyler

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Stupidity cannot be cured. Stupidity is the only universal capital crime. The sentence is death. There is no appeal and sentence is carried out automatically and without pity. Lazarus Long.

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dragonfaerie
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« Reply #48: May 18, 2009, 08:52:21 pm »


I didn't think this would turn into a discussion focused mainly on the smoking thing, but that's ok...

The festival in question is the Pennsylvania Fairie Festival, held on the private property at Spoutwood Farm in Glen Rock. I've never met the poster I was talking about, so I'm unsure what her mobility issues actually are. The smoking area I saw was atop a small hill that might be challenging for someone who doesn't walk so well. It was probably do-able for someone in a scooter.

At any rate, what struck me was less the smoking issue than the bitching issue. Rather than attempt to find the festival organizers or a staff member to discuss her needs for a more accessible smoking area, she waits until after she gets home to gripe about it on a local email list. It's a common trait I see among people who feel entitled to something, and that could probably spark off another topic entirely.

But getting around to my own opinion on the subject... I think our ritual and festival organizers have the right to set whatever rules they wish for events, and we should either discuss our issues with those folks or suck it up, unless the organizers are breaking laws. If folks want to limit or ban something that isn't breaking any laws (e.g. disallowing all pets, except service animals), that's their right.

And if my firm belief that setting such limits is considered to be intolerant? Then I'm happy to be intolerant. Especially if it helps folks understand that they aren't always entitled to have their whims catered to. After all, part of "community" is understanding that sometimes others' needs have to come before yours.

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« Reply #49: May 19, 2009, 04:22:00 pm »

*nods* my former college went completely smoke - free -- and I think that was TOTALLY the wrong choice.

Because now people that want to smoke have NO reason to go to a designated area (and there were quite a few outside, though none inside as far as I remember) or even to wait to go outside.  So you're asking people to either A) not smoke for an entire day (not reasonable for addicts!) or B) break the rules and smoke wherever they are.

Which do you think is likely to happen?  And I can't even blame them for B - even though it's WAY worse for me.

Ideology is great and all, but practicality HAS to win or it's just being stupid.  In my EVER so humble opinion.

Our hospitals in town have been smoke free for a few years.  Last year, one of the hospitals expanded the smoking ban.  You are not allowed to smoke at all while you are working, not on break, not on lunch, not outside, not in your car.  If you take a break and come back with smoke smell, then, I believe they send you home.  There was quite an uproar when they instituted this policy.  I read that many people were able to quit and the hospital provided stop smoking aids, like patches, councilling, whatever.  I haven't heard much about it lately, so I'm not sure how well it has worked out in practice.  (Goes to Google)
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« Reply #50: May 19, 2009, 04:27:36 pm »

Our hospitals in town have been smoke free for a few years.  Last year, one of the hospitals expanded the smoking ban.  You are not allowed to smoke at all while you are working, not on break, not on lunch, not outside, not in your car.  If you take a break and come back with smoke smell, then, I believe they send you home.  There was quite an uproar when they instituted this policy.  I read that many people were able to quit and the hospital provided stop smoking aids, like patches, councilling, whatever.  I haven't heard much about it lately, so I'm not sure how well it has worked out in practice.  (Goes to Google)

I really hate the idea of regulating people's LEGAL behavior.

Sure, I hate smoking - but that's just crazy.

Hell, I don't want my WORK regulating my ILLEGAL behavior!  If it doesn't affect the job.......
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herbalgoddess13
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« Reply #51: May 19, 2009, 04:58:43 pm »

I really hate the idea of regulating people's LEGAL behavior.

Sure, I hate smoking - but that's just crazy.

Hell, I don't want my WORK regulating my ILLEGAL behavior!  If it doesn't affect the job.......
I'm 50/50 on it.  I remember several times after surgery having a nurse come in smelling so strong of smoke I almost vomited.  But I also hate to take away anyone's rights and regulate what people do on their breaks or in their cars.  I also understand that it's a very strong addiction and making someone work a hospital shift (which can be 48 hours in some cases) seems really unfair.

I wish there were a happy medium where smokers could have rights and non-smokers never had to breath in second hand smoke or smell it.
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« Reply #52: May 19, 2009, 05:12:45 pm »

I wish there were a happy medium where smokers could have rights and non-smokers never had to breath in second hand smoke or smell it.

I'm not sure that there is and I definitely believe that where it is not possible to accomodate both, then the considerations of non-smokers should apply. Just as a link back to the original tolerance point, it is important to me that when this happens the person/people responsible for making the call also give up something.

The something I feel they must give up is the right to call themselves tolerent on that issue. I think that it's important and healthy to be mindful of our acts of intolerence and to own them as such. Society has to my mind valid attitudes about tolerence and gives a degree of credit to those who exercise it. When we choose not to, I think that we and our societies benefit from the self examination, external opprobium and general focus that a title of intolerence (even on a single issue) can bring.
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"If Michelangelo had been straight, the Sistine Chapel would have been wallpapered" Robin Tyler

It's the saddest thing in the world when you can only feel big by making others feel small. - UPG

Stupidity cannot be cured. Stupidity is the only universal capital crime. The sentence is death. There is no appeal and sentence is carried out automatically and without pity. Lazarus Long.

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« Reply #53: May 19, 2009, 05:17:14 pm »

You are not allowed to smoke at all while you are working, not on break, not on lunch, not outside, not in your car.

I cant imagine an employer who would be in a position to pay me what I would demand for that sort of total life control.

I sat in an interview quite recently and was offered a job at a given hourly rate. When I went to sign the contract it had a range of clauses regulating my behaviour out of work time and during within-work breaks. I told them I had no problem with that, but revised my hourly rate upwards by 50%. Needless to say, they declined and I didn't sign. Funny thing though, they were even more sure that I was the person they wanted as I was leaving, thanthey were as I walked in.
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"If Michelangelo had been straight, the Sistine Chapel would have been wallpapered" Robin Tyler

It's the saddest thing in the world when you can only feel big by making others feel small. - UPG

Stupidity cannot be cured. Stupidity is the only universal capital crime. The sentence is death. There is no appeal and sentence is carried out automatically and without pity. Lazarus Long.

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