Religious Divorce

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[Owl]

I've heard the quote that it takes about half the length of time you were in the relationship. (And at least for relationships less than about a decade, this seems to be true in my experience.)

I was involved with my ex-husband for 6 years, and married for 4, and have been divorced for 3 and change. There was a real shift in the last six months from having continuing strong emotions about some pieces of it to now being "Eh. I move on, I luxuriate in my success, and don't worry about him." Even emailing him a piece of news he needed to know (death of his former boss's wife: she worked for the school I work for when I started, which is how I knew) wasn't too painful.

(though I have not yet replied to his "So, how are things with you?" response to that email after he thanked me for letting him know.)

Could be.  But that doesn't mean I want to spend time with him.

[Owl]

Catholics need to get an annulment in order remarry in the church.  It's nearly impossible to get one, so once you divorce, it's rare that the Catholic church will allow you to marry again (or acknowledge a marriage outside the church).

When I was in high school the annulments were not that hard to get - but they did make the children of the first marriage officially bastards.  A number of people I knew or was related to went through the process so as to get their second marriage blessed.

[Sperran]

When I was in high school the annulments were not that hard to get - but they did make the children of the first marriage officially bastards.  A number of people I knew or was related to went through the process so as to get their second marriage blessed.

I think that is why a lot of people choose not to get an annulment, even it if is possible.

[Owl]

I think that is why a lot of people choose not to get an annulment, even it if is possible.

My mother was being pressured by family members to do so, and she refused - officially on these grounds.  But in reality that was only part of it, the rest was she didn't feel a part of the Catholic church any longer and so felt she would only be going through the motions to do this anyway.  A lot of effort to just go through the motions!

[folksymama]

they did make the children of the first marriage officially bastards

This is completely false.  A widely believed rumor, but just another bit of anti-Catholic jibberish someone made up and then everyone went along with it.  The Catholic church does not view the children of two Protestants to be "bastards", even though they don't recognize that marriage as sacramental.  The legal aspects of any marriage are recognized by church.  Even though a marriage may be declared null in the church, it did still exist legally, and therefore the children are still legitimate.

[FunkyDemon]

When I was in high school the annulments were not that hard to get - but they did make the children of the first marriage officially bastards.  A number of people I knew or was related to went through the process so as to get their second marriage blessed.

Whether it is true or not (regarding the children being officially bastards), is there some significance to this?  I mean many of the people I know don't get married until after they have their first child, if they get married at all.  Does it have special meaning for Catholics or Christians?  Or perhaps laws in some jurisdictions?

[Star]

Whether it is true or not (regarding the children being officially bastards), is there some significance to this?  I mean many of the people I know don't get married until after they have their first child, if they get married at all.  Does it have special meaning for Catholics or Christians?  Or perhaps laws in some jurisdictions?

Speaking only of my area, and not on a general level:  Getting married after the birth of the first child doesn't seem all that common around here.  There's still very much a stigma attached to the "unwed mother", and the default assumption is that if you live together and have a child together, you're married.  Having the child first and then getting married is considered Doing Things In The Wrong Order and quite scandalous.  My poor mother is absolutely mortified for her friends at church whose children have gotten pregnant and THEN married and was SO glad that I did it "the right way".  Etc., etc.

That said, we're not a strongly-enough Catholic locale that I really think the community would give a flip whether the Church said the poor kids were bastards or not.  I think the general populace is more likely to look at it from a civic standpoint, from which the kids are still the product of a proper marriage even if that marriage no longer exists.

I've no idea about the legal ramifications of being a bastard, but I doubt the law is going to listen to the church on that one anyway, so it's really not that relevant IMO.

[Sperran]

Whether it is true or not (regarding the children being officially bastards), is there some significance to this?  I mean many of the people I know don't get married until after they have their first child, if they get married at all.  Does it have special meaning for Catholics or Christians?  Or perhaps laws in some jurisdictions?

I think this sort of thing was more relevant in the past.  Being a bastard had all sorts of unhappy legal and social consequences that either don't exist or are considerably lessened.

Sperran

[folksymama]

Whether it is true or not (regarding the children being officially bastards), is there some significance to this?  I mean many of the people I know don't get married until after they have their first child, if they get married at all.  Does it have special meaning for Catholics or Christians?  Or perhaps laws in some jurisdictions?

Here, most people still do things in the "right order"...marriage, THEN kids.  When I found myself pregnant and unmarried, there was a huge scramble by my family, especially my devout Catholic grandmother, to get me married quick.  However, when I talked to my priest, he wouldn't marry us, pregnant or not, without the required classes, which we didn't have time to take as the father was deployed.  He said he'd be happy to baptize my child, and marry us after we'd had pre-canna.  So, even the local parish here didn't put the emphasis on being married, but rather on going through the proper channels to make sure that the marriage, when and if it did happen, was being entered into for the right reasons.

[Owl]

This is completely false.  A widely believed rumor, but just another bit of anti-Catholic jibberish someone made up and then everyone went along with it.  The Catholic church does not view the children of two Protestants to be "bastards", even though they don't recognize that marriage as sacramental.  The legal aspects of any marriage are recognized by church.  Even though a marriage may be declared null in the church, it did still exist legally, and therefore the children are still legitimate.

That is not what my mother was told - and we were Catholic.  Her first marriage was "in" the church and she was told that part of annulling it was that the children were then (according to the church - not the state) born out of wedlock.  This was in the early 1970's.

[FunkyDemon]

Here, most people still do things in the "right order"...marriage, THEN kids.  When I found myself pregnant and unmarried, there was a huge scramble by my family, especially my devout Catholic grandmother, to get me married quick.  However, when I talked to my priest, he wouldn't marry us, pregnant or not, without the required classes, which we didn't have time to take as the father was deployed.  He said he'd be happy to baptize my child, and marry us after we'd had pre-canna.  So, even the local parish here didn't put the emphasis on being married, but rather on going through the proper channels to make sure that the marriage, when and if it did happen, was being entered into for the right reasons.

I suppose the big difference is I don't know anyone that goes to church.  It must be a purely religious social thing.  Since nobody has that kind of social pressure, it just isn't an issue amongst those I know.

[Star]

I suppose the big difference is I don't know anyone that goes to church.  It must be a purely religious social thing.  Since nobody has that kind of social pressure, it just isn't an issue amongst those I know.

Or it may be a regional social issue.  Folksymama's profile says she's one state over from me, so we're not that far apart, whereas you're in a whole other country; it could very well be sort of an American Midwest thing rather than a religious thing.  Or, more likely, a bit of both, the regional attitudes being influenced by (although not synonymous with) the religious ones.

[RandallS]

That is not what my mother was told - and we were Catholic.  Her first marriage was "in" the church and she was told that part of annulling it was that the children were then (according to the church - not the state) born out of wedlock. 

As the state controls all the legal issues surrounding children, what a church considers the children would have little effect outside their own records.

[Owl]

As the state controls all the legal issues surrounding children, what a church considers the children would have little effect outside their own records.

Exactly.  I'm sorry if I was unclear on that - the US is NOT governed by the Catholic church.  I was speaking from a religious perspective only. 

[sailor_tech]

It is true that only women need a get to become remarried; you are correct that I didn't make that clear.  Can a beit din actually compel a man to issue a get?  I have heard of cases where the beit din recommends (and essentially tries to shame) a man into issuing a get, but did not force him to do so.  I was under the impression that a beit din could not compel someone to issue a get; is it just a rarely used power?  I know it is a big problem in Israel, where men refuse to issue a get out of spite and their wives are unable to get remarried since the Orthodox rabbinate governs marriage there.

Sperran

Compel depends upon the value of compel.  Shame, shunning, asking a civil court to hold up the civil divorce (outside of Israel).  I suspect it depends upon the local area.  So long as the beit din isn't prevent proof of threats of violence that works also in my great aunt's case.

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