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Author Topic: Religious Divorce  (Read 11772 times)
Sperran
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« Reply #45: May 21, 2009, 02:49:02 pm »

Compel depends upon the value of compel.  Shame, shunning, asking a civil court to hold up the civil divorce (outside of Israel).  I suspect it depends upon the local area.  So long as the beit din isn't prevent proof of threats of violence that works also in my great aunt's case.


So like every other Jewish question, the answer is:  "It depends" and "Ask your rabbi".  Smiley
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« Reply #46: May 21, 2009, 04:20:29 pm »

So like every other Jewish question, the answer is:  "It depends" and "Ask your rabbi".  Smiley
I also see a huge difference between Orthodox and non-Orthodox, so yes, it depends and ask a rabbi  Tongue.
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« Reply #47: May 22, 2009, 04:40:20 am »

I suppose the big difference is I don't know anyone that goes to church.  It must be a purely religious social thing.  Since nobody has that kind of social pressure, it just isn't an issue amongst those I know.

Canada is funny that way.  Tongue We have quite a bit of religiosity here, but unless it seems you were born into a very religious family (which seems to be becoming rare these days), the presence of religious social pressure is close to nil. Ontario to Saskatchewan seems to be that way, with BC prolly. I'm inclined to believe Alberta would be more "religious" because of their stronger right-wing population, but thats not fair. As for the Maritimes; I have no friggin clue.
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« Reply #48: May 22, 2009, 04:46:50 am »

That is not what my mother was told - and we were Catholic.  Her first marriage was "in" the church and she was told that part of annulling it was that the children were then (according to the church - not the state) born out of wedlock.  This was in the early 1970's.

First off, agreeing with Randall here that it has no effect legal-wise in a country that is not officially Catholic.

Two, what you said is true. Annulment is the process of making/declaring a marriage null and void. It never officially (in the eyes of the Church) existed, and thus any children born in the marriage were born out of Catholic wedlock. Thus, illegitimate and thus a bastard (since for the most part Canada and the US have English origin, and using the term "bastard" was more common across the pond. It was also apparently legally recognized under English and Welsh law at some point).

Of course, viewing a child as a legitimate "heir" or a bastard entirely depends, I think, on the person viewing the situation. Some who are very, very Catholic might be inclined to say they are bastards/illegitimate, some might not. We have changed a lot in the past couple of decades.
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« Reply #49: May 22, 2009, 11:06:23 am »

First off, agreeing with Randall here that it has no effect legal-wise in a country that is not officially Catholic.

Two, what you said is true. Annulment is the process of making/declaring a marriage null and void. It never officially (in the eyes of the Church) existed, and thus any children born in the marriage were born out of Catholic wedlock. Thus, illegitimate and thus a bastard (since for the most part Canada and the US have English origin, and using the term "bastard" was more common across the pond. It was also apparently legally recognized under English and Welsh law at some point).

Of course, viewing a child as a legitimate "heir" or a bastard entirely depends, I think, on the person viewing the situation. Some who are very, very Catholic might be inclined to say they are bastards/illegitimate, some might not. We have changed a lot in the past couple of decades.

My mother simply found it offensive.  She was being pressured to put a lot of time and money into something she didn't really care about that would cause the church consider 2 of her children illegitimate.  Very much a 'no sale' situation for her.
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« Reply #50: May 22, 2009, 01:55:27 pm »

Two, what you said is true. Annulment is the process of making/declaring a marriage null and void. It never officially (in the eyes of the Church) existed, and thus any children born in the marriage were born out of Catholic wedlock.

Incorrect.  Koi isn't here to actually do the details, but I dug around and found a source:

http://www.stclouddiocese.org/annulment.htm

"3. Does an annulment affect the legitimacy of children?
No. The legitimacy of children is determined by the laws of the states. Just as a divorce does not make children illegitimate, neither does an annulment granted by the Church. The laws of the Church state that children born of a supposedly valid union are legitimate children. Therefore, if the marriage is later shown to have been invalid, the status of the children remains unchanged: they are legitimate."

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« Reply #51: May 22, 2009, 03:14:37 pm »

Incorrect.  Koi isn't here to actually do the details, but I dug around and found a source:

http://www.stclouddiocese.org/annulment.htm

"3. Does an annulment affect the legitimacy of children?
No. The legitimacy of children is determined by the laws of the states. Just as a divorce does not make children illegitimate, neither does an annulment granted by the Church. The laws of the Church state that children born of a supposedly valid union are legitimate children. Therefore, if the marriage is later shown to have been invalid, the status of the children remains unchanged: they are legitimate."



Well then those family members trying to convince my mother should have got their facts straight.
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« Reply #52: May 22, 2009, 04:18:46 pm »

Incorrect.  Koi isn't here to actually do the details, but I dug around and found a source:

http://www.stclouddiocese.org/annulment.htm

Thank you!  I was just going to find a source, since I didn't cite on in my original reply.
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« Reply #53: May 22, 2009, 04:20:37 pm »

My mother simply found it offensive.  She was being pressured to put a lot of time and money into something she didn't really care about that would cause the church consider 2 of her children illegitimate.  Very much a 'no sale' situation for her.

I've known several people who have gone through annulments and none of them have ever said that the church told them doing so would cause their children to be viewed as illegitimate.

There's really no point in an annulment unless one plans on remarrying.  Simply being divorced is not something that would preclude anyone from receiving any of the sacraments.
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« Reply #54: May 22, 2009, 04:27:48 pm »

Well then those family members trying to convince my mother should have got their facts straight.

Yep. But most people are not experts on the details of canon law, y'know? There's a lot of misinformation about some things floating around even amongst Catholics unless they have had reason to learn about a specific bit.

(My mother is still a very active Catholic, and she laments this bit. When she was first throwing fits over my being Pagan, the thing that got her going "Ohhhhh, I see the attraction" was me talking about how I could find people who actively wanted to learn more about our shared religious .. erm, pretty much any time I turned around. She and I both know plenty of thoughtful Catholics who want to dig deeper - but we also know plenty who do it because it's the thing they were brought up with, and who pass on misinformation in weird ways just because they don't know the details.)

Also, even 15 or 20 years ago, many of the details of how the Church handled divorce were somewhat more .. regimented, and it was a lot easier for misinformation to come out of that. These days, there's better communication about a lot of it. (I think this is partly due to a better-educated church staff outside the priests: at my mother's church, most of the people who'd be doing that kind of conversation/education have M.Div degrees or substantial other education - and that wasn't nearly as true when our family started going there about 20 years ago.)
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« Reply #55: May 22, 2009, 05:45:03 pm »

I've known several people who have gone through annulments and none of them have ever said that the church told them doing so would cause their children to be viewed as illegitimate.

There's really no point in an annulment unless one plans on remarrying.  Simply being divorced is not something that would preclude anyone from receiving any of the sacraments.

As I have said, there was apparently misinformation in abundance.  And she had already remarried, but my uncle had gone through the process, and he and his wife and my other uncle and aunt were hounding my mother and stepfather - because he was Catholic too.  What was never mentioned was that my mother and stepfather NEVER attended church, so why assume that they even cared.
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« Reply #56: May 22, 2009, 05:47:59 pm »

Yep. But most people are not experts on the details of canon law, y'know? There's a lot of misinformation about some things floating around even amongst Catholics unless they have had reason to learn about a specific bit.

(My mother is still a very active Catholic, and she laments this bit. When she was first throwing fits over my being Pagan, the thing that got her going "Ohhhhh, I see the attraction" was me talking about how I could find people who actively wanted to learn more about our shared religious .. erm, pretty much any time I turned around. She and I both know plenty of thoughtful Catholics who want to dig deeper - but we also know plenty who do it because it's the thing they were brought up with, and who pass on misinformation in weird ways just because they don't know the details.)

Also, even 15 or 20 years ago, many of the details of how the Church handled divorce were somewhat more .. regimented, and it was a lot easier for misinformation to come out of that. These days, there's better communication about a lot of it. (I think this is partly due to a better-educated church staff outside the priests: at my mother's church, most of the people who'd be doing that kind of conversation/education have M.Div degrees or substantial other education - and that wasn't nearly as true when our family started going there about 20 years ago.)

The 1970's was a very interesting time for the Catholic church.  They were still very conservative about many things but were trying to become more accessible to younger people of that time.  Maybe by making the divorce and new marriage 'ok' instead of a sin, they thought they could bring lapsed followers back.  Since my mother claims pagan now, I don't think that was going to work with her!
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« Reply #57: May 22, 2009, 07:05:06 pm »

Incorrect.  Koi isn't here to actually do the details, but I dug around and found a source:

http://www.stclouddiocese.org/annulment.htm

"3. Does an annulment affect the legitimacy of children?
No. The legitimacy of children is determined by the laws of the states. Just as a divorce does not make children illegitimate, neither does an annulment granted by the Church. The laws of the Church state that children born of a supposedly valid union are legitimate children. Therefore, if the marriage is later shown to have been invalid, the status of the children remains unchanged: they are legitimate."



This is the first I have seen that even suggested that legitimacy is a matter of law.  As far as I am aware whether I child is born in or out of wedlock has no bearing on how the child is viewed by the law.
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« Reply #58: May 22, 2009, 09:43:49 pm »

I'm inclined to believe Alberta would be more "religious" because of their stronger right-wing population, but thats not fair.
Not really; most of us (like much of Canada, and also, from what I've gathered from Cauldronites who live there, somewhat like the US Midwest) treat religion as a personal matter, and try to ignore the noisy biblethumpy minority.

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« Reply #59: May 31, 2009, 12:09:40 pm »

This is the first I have seen that even suggested that legitimacy is a matter of law.  As far as I am aware whether I child is born in or out of wedlock has no bearing on how the child is viewed by the law.

It could matter for inheiritance in some states if there is either no will, or the will is contested.
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