Can religion lead you to error?

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[RandallS]

The situation in Iraq and Afghanistan seem to belie this point of view. Particularly when one considers the extensive media coverage of the fundamentalist religions underpinning many/most of the individuals in the major forces.

Fortunately, most people aren't religious fundamentalists -- let alone fundies. Sure, there are some people who would jump on any justification to harm those they don't like, but they are a minority (although a large one, unfortunately) of humanity.

[BGMarc]

Fortunately, most people aren't religious fundamentalists

For sure, most people aren't. I am less confident in saying that most members of those fighting forces that are deployed aren't. It could be biased reporting, but in Australia we have seen a fairly steady stream of interviews with US soldiers who are over there 'fighting for God'. I know it's not everyone, but I don't think it's fair to dismiss all of those people as not having sufficient reason to count and there certainly seems to be enough of them to count as a significant minority. At least enough to support my point.

[atheist of peace]

, a discussion arose in which thread drift caused it to focus on whether or not religion was bad.  Bits of the Christian bible were quoted with the claim that such passages seemed to encourage everything from rape to genocide, and the statement was made that atheism, which has no beliefs, cannot lead people to action.

Religiom/holy books can lead to being "immoral," just as it can lead to being, "moral and ethical," holy books and religion can justify many contradictory things. It sometimes depends on how you interprit things, or on what you accept. Some see the bad as out dated, some see the bad as good (ugh), and some ignore the bad and keep the good. They decided somethins were immoral by themselvs not because a book told them too.

I am a humanist and an enviromentalist. I am also a more consiquentialist/realist and not a moral absolutest. Religion makes absolute morals. Some thing is immoral because it just is. It is immoral regardless of the suffering it does or does not cause, how much it can/does elimante suffering, the results and outcomes of what is in question. This is a terrible way to set moral and ethical standards.

Absolure morals are bad and dangerous. Sex is bad and so is useing a condom. Learning abot sex and condoms is immoral, so kids learn only abistence. What happens when they do have sex? Guess what, they are less likely to use condoms and practice safe sex. America is strange for a first world/developed country, it is the most religous of all. Ameircan teens have the same ammount of sex and at about the same age as the secularized developed nations. However, american teens have higher rates of pregnancy, abortions, and stds. Correlation to Americas religous ways. To many kids are learning absinence only or not enough about safe sex, and/or are being discuraged and/or told lies about condoms.
Speaking about lies about condoms, did you know not only did the pope go to africa and tell the africans that condoms are immoral, but told them out right lies about them. Condoms, they were told, do not protect against aids, they are built with micro scopic holes to allow them to travel through. Ironic, wouldn't such wholes allow seemen to get through? This in a culture where it is beilived that having (unprotected) sex  with a virgin can cure aids. The pope encuraged people to have monagamous sex with their partner in marrige. Condemed the use of condoms even with in a married couple(also saying lies) and encuraged them to have children. This is going to help Africa how?

I forget the who's, where's, and when's but, a shot that either prevents or cures( I forget which one) the human papolam viruse, which is a major problem for females thats causes cervical cancer among other things, is very close and near comletion. some important person who could get a bill to allow the shot to be administered or stop the use of it, said he would consider prevent the use of the shoot on the grounds that it encurages premarital sex because it makes it safer. Really? Come one? Haven't people who died of Aids been called martars for not useing condoms and contracting it from their partners?

This is just one example out of many tha shows how religious beilifes can be dnagerous. On the grounds that it is moral just because, absoulte morality, something that prevents and allevates pain and suffering is resisted and called immoral. How is that ethical. Is it really ethical to prevent the protect and cure of suffering for absolute reasons? Useing a condom, even premarital sex, does not cause suffering, when of course done in a safe and smart way. By itself neither cause suffering and can prevent and/or allevate it. Yes, sex can be bad, but thats for certain reasons, and even then the sex its self is not. So yes religion/holy books can me immoral and un ethical.

Whats worse I think, a least some times, is how religion creates ourgroups. We have no need of outgroups, or atleast as many as we do, and for some reasons over others, out groups are bad/dangerous. Hey that person is different then us because they do not agree with our faith, even by a smidgen. Think of all the violence done in God/god(s) name. Having outgroups can cause dehumanizing, lessering another importance, are viewing others as the enemy.

Are you all familair with the massacres going on/went on in Bosnia?(its cool if your not I only know cause my ex was born their) Well the Serbs are massacering the Bosnian people. Ok, heres the extra credit point question for any one who knew the first question, what is the difference between a Bosnian and a Serb? Religion, to be be Bosnian is to be Muslim, to be a serb is to be orthodox christianity. How about the problem of religion in Ireland? Or how about the sunnie and shiies? Religion kills. as hitchen says, i think it was hitchens, "Religion posions everything," even if it does not cause bad, it can prevent good. One last example, their was a fire of an all girls Islamic dometory in Mexico. They fire fighters were prevent from entering because their were Islamic girls not dressed in their (brain fart), and the girls were not allow to leave for the same reason. Many died.

Anyways I could keep going, but I think the point has been made. Instead of pushing these points with more examples, I'll try to figure out other examples for points I have yet to make. Hope this helps and was clear.

Peace
Mick

ps sorry no ie spell here I am not at home atm.

[Star]

Absolure morals are bad and dangerous.

I have to ask:  Were you intending to be ironic here?  Because this looks an awful lot like a rather absolute moral condemnation of absolute morals, and I'm having a difficult time telling whether you're aware of that or not.

I forget the who's, where's, and when's but, a shot that either prevents or cures( I forget which one) the human papolam viruse, which is a major problem for females thats causes cervical cancer among other things, is very close and near comletion.

There's been a vaccine on the market for a few years now, if that's what you're talking about.
http://www.cdc.gov/std/hpv/STDFact-HPV-vaccine-young-women.htm

Religion can lead to bad things, sure--but so can a lot of things.  How many awful things have been done in the name of patriotism?  In the name of survival?  In the name of love?  In the name of loyalty?  Humans are awfully creative, and we've got the ability to take just about anything and twist it into something dark and oppressive.  Just because it leads to bad things doesn't necessarily mean it is a bad thing in and of itself.  You seem to recognize this in the first couple of paragraphs of your post, though, so I'm not entirely sure where you're going with this.

[RandallS]

For sure, most people aren't. I am less confident in saying that most members of those fighting forces that are deployed aren't. It could be biased reporting, but in Australia we have seen a fairly steady stream of interviews with US soldiers who are over there 'fighting for God'.

I suspect somewhat biased reporting as we don't see much of that. I know they are there but they aren't the majority.

[mandrina]

There's been a vaccine on the market for a few years now, if that's what you're talking about.
http://www.cdc.gov/std/hpv/STDFact-HPV-vaccine-young-women.htm

yeppers, my oldest daughter already got it and the younger one will probably next year.  We will probably talk to the doctor about the boys, I'm not sure of the approval there yet.

[Mandi]

Depends on the intent of the user.  Error is in the eye of the beholder.  Not all religious persons strive for morality or ethical action.

So long as people can disagree on the correct application of religion, there will always be those who see others faith based choices as erroneous.

You don't see too many people saying 'god was wrong' unless they are in the throes of a crisis of faith and usually they have to resolve that with either this is the wrong god for me, or I heard god wrong.

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