Agnostic atheist. interfaith talks...

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[atheist of peace]

Heya all.  I am Mick. =D 20 almost 21 years old. Psych major. humanist, environmentalist, naturalist, skeptic, secularist, hippie....etc. I find interfaith disccusion the most important thing, but I'll get to that in a bit.  I am an atheist I add agnostic to show you that I am not certain and that I say that their seems to be no God/god(s) based of the definition I am using and from how I view the world. I was born Christian(Catholic). I was really  into it untill I saw a contradiction in a sermon when I was alterserving. So I left the church and started thinking. I stay christian for a bit but started reading about so many more faiths. I found paganism and easter philsophy to go best with my world views at that time. I tried a little bit of everything in those areas.

Eventualy I ended up with a cross of Shamanism, druidism, Buddhism, and doaism. Shamanism was the first thing I picked up and it stayed with me through out my whole "journey" I started out as a Christian Shaman. Eventualy I ended up with just watered down shamanism and a daoist philsophy. I was pantheist/pandeist at best at the end. As Dawkins says, "pantheism is just sexed up atheism," the earth was my godess but in reality I was just applying a supernatural term to our planet and mother.  I am now an atheist but I could/would still be able to say mother earth is my god...I still find some parts of the Daoist philsophy appealing but with a psychological understanding of it. I am a psych major.  My enviromentalism is shaped deeply by "pure" shamanism....

I belong to a lot of athiest, humansit, and religious boards. I mod two of them. One of the boards I mod is an Islamic board. It is so people can learn about Islam, and Muslims can learn about others. This has done wonders for some people. I also mod an "atheist" site. It's a board for all people to talk about all things. It's really trying to set out to be a forum for interfaith discussions on all topic. Its aim is to bring us together peacfully and have every one learn from and about each other . =D

Whats the ruleing on links with link backs? *goes to read rules again*
Speaking of rules I have a question on one.
...dang its not saved in my clip board, I'll ask it latter.
*hugs*
peace
Mick




ask away,

[atheist of peace]

Whats the ruleing on links with link backs? *goes to read rules again*
Speaking of rules I have a question on one.
...dang its not saved in my clip board, I'll ask it latter.

In regards to,

DO NOT attempt to moderate other members. Leave the moderating to the forum staff and hosts. If you believe a forum post violates the rules in a major way, you may bring that post to the attention of the forum staff by reporting that message with the "Report to moderator" link. You can bring non-forum problems to the attention of staff by emailing a staff member via their profile.

It would be wrong for me to tell some one heya whatch out on ther personal attacks  you might want to change that before you get into trouble. etc. Its against the rules to give freindly reminders?

[Marilyn (ABSENTMINDED)]

Welcome to The Cauldron, atheist of peace.

It would be wrong for me to tell some one heya whatch out on ther personal attacks  you might want to change that before you get into trouble. etc. Its against the rules to give freindly reminders?

Basically yes.  Especially since the 'you might want to change that' goes against the rule about changing the content of a post after more than a couple of minutes.  We have edit limits because this is a very busy board and if someone goes back and changes a post after it has been read, and especially after it has been replied to, we are no longer all having the same conversation.

Somebody who wishes to retract or apologize for a snarky reply can do so in a new post - otherwise it is up to a moderator to decide if a warning is required or not, or if the reply is actually abusive.  Reporting a post for moderation is the limit of what we expect our members to do in the way of policing each other.

Marilyn
Message Board Staff

[BGMarc]

As Dawkins says, "pantheism is just sexed up atheism," the earth was my godess but in reality I was just applying a supernatural term to our planet and mother.

The only issue with this is that redefining words so that you can win your argument isn't a great way to argue. Dawkins seems to do this a lot (i.e. 'god is xyz, which can't be true, so there is no god' to which the theist replies 'but that isn't what I mean by god' and Dawkins counters 'yes it is'), which is quite similar to (if not the same as) a behaviour much frowned upon at TC IME. That is, telling people what they believe. Not all theists would agree that 'goddess' refers to an inherantly supernatural thing. For at least some theists, deities are an entirely natural phenomenon.

[BGMarc]

Its against the rules to give freindly reminders?

In my recent experience, yes it is.

[atheist of peace]

The only issue with this is that redefining words so that you can win your argument isn't a great way to argue. 

Agreed. But some times words are way too ambigous, but it is fair to say, by x definition I do not beilive in Y. I call myself an atheist whith a certain definition of God/god(s) in mind. Tell me your version/definition and I'll tell you what I am. I'll say more on this latter and reply ot the comment on dawkins.

Not all theists would agree that 'goddess' refers to an inherantly supernatural thing. For at least some theists, deities are an entirely natural phenomenon.

It can be so hard discussing this topic for that exact reason.

[HeartShadow - Cutethulhu]

Welcome to the Cauldron!

And Dawkins can stuff it.  I'm a pantheist and I'm NOT an atheist - I know the difference.

[BGMarc]

Agreed. But some times words are way too ambigous, but it is fair to say, by x definition I do not beilive in Y.

While this is entirely true, I would contend that it only comes into play when there are pre-existing, competing definitions. Atheism and pantheism are not such an instance IMHO. In this instance it is an attempt by one side of an argument to redefine the terms in such a way that the other side cannot but lose. This can be a perfectly valid way of arguing, but it places a great burden on the individual to prove their definition is the one that should be applied. I would strongly contend that Mr Dawkins neither attempts nor achieves such a demonstration. He appears to me in his books, interviews and articles to simply assert a definition that he prefers, rather than engaging the established definition he seeks to tear down.

I call myself an atheist whith a certain definition of God/god(s) in mind. Tell me your version/definition and I'll tell you what I am. I'll say more on this latter and reply ot the comment on dawkins.

In short:

• consciousness arises from complex, self-adaptive, autopoietic systems;
• the universe is such a system;
• such systems may be nested at varying scales within the universal system (e.g. humans);
• such systems may overlap (i.e. a component of one such system may be simultaneously a component of another such system);
• action of a component within one such system may impact its behaviour in relation to another;
• at least some deities are an example of such systems at a greater than human scale (for the record, I am either an atheist with respect to deities not of this sort, or a very soft polytheist).

[Optimistic]

Heya all.  I am Mick.

Hi Mick.  Welcome.

[RandallS]

While this is entirely true, I would contend that it only comes into play when there are pre-existing, competing definitions. Atheism and pantheism are not such an instance IMHO. In this instance it is an attempt by one side of an argument to redefine the terms in such a way that the other side cannot but lose. This can be a perfectly valid way of arguing, but it places a great burden on the individual to prove their definition is the one that should be applied.

I completely agree. In fact, when I took Philosophy of Religion, one of the points the professor stressed about religious argument was the need to work within the commonly accepted definitions the religion used. If religion X defined "God" as X, Y, and Z then that was the definition one had to work with. Demonstrating that God with attributes X, Y, ans A did or did not exist said nothing at all about the deity actually under discussion.

[Darkhawk]

I completely agree. In fact, when I took Philosophy of Religion, one of the points the professor stressed about religious argument was the need to work within the commonly accepted definitions the religion used. If religion X defined "God" as X, Y, and Z then that was the definition one had to work with. Demonstrating that God with attributes X, Y, ans A did or did not exist said nothing at all about the deity actually under discussion.

This is a common failing of theist/atheist discussions I've seen on the internet; too many of the arguments fall down completely for a deity that is not omniscient or omnipotent.  Once when I pointed out that that was a very limited conception of the divine, I got a response of, "Well, why would anyone worship a god that wasn't?"

... I don't even know how to begin to communicate across such a gap.

[goatboy]

As Dawkins says, "pantheism is just sexed up atheism,".

Hello, and welcome to the forum.
Though the members of the board have differing opinions on the nature of
divinity, I doubt you will find any who see Mr Dawkins as a God, which seems to be ironically
how many of his readers view him.

[RandallS]

Once when I pointed out that that was a very limited conception of the divine, I got a response of, "Well, why would anyone worship a god that wasn't?"

Of course, from a purely monotheist POV, that question makes sense. If there is only one God, he would not be much of a God if he/she wasn't all-powerful, all-knowing, etc. etc. I usually find the main disconnect I have with such people is they can't really understand the concept of multiple gods. That is, they see the universe through a monotheist filter and don't understand other filters at all.

[FunkyDemon]

This is a common failing of theist/atheist discussions I've seen on the internet; too many of the arguments fall down completely for a deity that is not omniscient or omnipotent.  Once when I pointed out that that was a very limited conception of the divine, I got a response of, "Well, why would anyone worship a god that wasn't?"

... I don't even know how to begin to communicate across such a gap.

I've had similar discussions with some friends.  For the Norse pantheon it is obvious from mythology that they are not omni-whatever.  The quick version was when I said they don't have to be all powerful to kick your @**.

[atheist of peace]

I am lost. Could you explain

In short:

• consciousness arises from complex, self-adaptive, autopoietic systems;
• the universe is such a system;
• such systems may be nested at varying scales within the universal system (e.g. humans);
• such systems may overlap (i.e. a component of one such system may be simultaneously a component of another such system);
• action of a component within one such system may impact its behaviour in relation to another;
• at least some deities are an example of such systems at a greater than human scale (for the record, I am either an atheist with respect to deities not of this sort, or a very soft polytheist).

to me please. I don't get or uderstand what you mean. I tried looking up a few definitons. I even called in a friend of mine, who happens to be irnocly getting into paganism. What did you mean?

I got a response of, "Well, why would anyone worship a god that wasn't?"

... I don't even know how to begin to communicate across such a gap.

They are generaly speaking, nicer and more giving then the God of Abraham(A.S.).

Speaking of which, check out "Gods*" MO. First God comes out angery, wrathful, scary, etc. Then the God comes out Loving, peaceful, safe, forgiving, etc. Finaly God, again comes out angery, wrathful, scary, etc. I suspect drugs. Consider adding in The Great Unknowable Unimaginable Ununderstadible Divine, of which all Hindu gods are only an aspect of. By the rules set by the West/Christianity, Hinduism is monotheistic. The up's the down's as my unproffional opinion as a psych major, suggests that God is ussing drugs. If the patient would return my calls I would have a much better understanding the truth, of the psycholigical "cause*".

Not that the

Hello, and welcome to the forum.
I doubt you will find any who see Mr Dawkins as a God, which seems to be ironically
how many of his readers view him.

See thats an atheist inside joke. Over at the RDF forums, their are members who put, "Dawk!," in their profile pic (speaking of which how do I upload a custom one?) this is part of a running gag in them same vain as.

I've had similar discussions with some friends.  For the Norse pantheon it is obvious from mythology that they are not omni-whatever.  The quick version was when I said they don't have to be all powerful to kick your @**.

HA! Then why did an imaginary god God whoop them? Same with the Celtic gods..
So what makes these gods more plasuible?

peace
Mick

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