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Author Topic: Fluffy Bunnies and Fundies  (Read 27453 times)
HeartShadow - Cutethulhu
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« Reply #105: June 17, 2011, 03:47:05 pm »

Yep, ignore the bit where I specified which parts of the world I was talking about.  And of course I meant 2000 years, when the Christians and the Pagans with those traditions hadn't even met each other 2000 years ago.  it's ok.  I know that putting the words into my mouth that you'd like to argue with is easier than refuting what I actually wrote.

Wait, so responding without reading "properly" is reserved now?

You're trying to claim people are celebrating *Pagan religious holidays* for Christian holidays.  Not cultural stuff tacked on, not extra parties - very specifically *Pagan holidays*.

Which insults - yes - every Christian that celebrates their own holidays to THEIR OWN GOD.
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« Reply #106: June 17, 2011, 05:18:02 pm »

And it's not like I addressed exactly that arguement already, but that's ok, don't actually read the stuff you are mocking, it makes the arguement much easier for you.

No, you didn't address it.

You said:
Passion plays and whatnot are certainly part of it, for fairly religious Christians, but most people are celebrating a Pagan holiday and thinking it is a Christian one. 

I replied:
This is like saying that most pagans are actually worshiping Satan and just think they're worshiping [fill in any god/dess name here].

It also assumes that most Christians don't know much about their own religion.

And you replied:
If Pagans had adopted our rituals from Satanic groups then it would be an accurate statement that we were worshipping Satan without realizing it.  That's not the claim that Christians make, they claim that our Gods and Goddesses are actually Demons, or Satan wearing another face.

You didn't *address* my point, you *rephrased* it.

The origin of a pagan's practice is irrelevant.  Whether I got it from a history book, a fairy tale book, or divine revelation, my worship of Brighid is NOT the same thing as worship of Satan or any other evil being -- even if there appear to be common elements in the form of the practice.

When you say "they claim that our Gods and Goddesses are actually Demons, or Satan wearing another face." you're saying the same thing I said:  Some Christians claim that pagans are not worshiping pagan god/desses, but are actually worshiping Satan/demons/evil being. 

For most pagans, that is an untrue and offensive statement.

I think it's also untrue and offensive to say "most people are celebrating a Pagan holiday and thinking it is a Christian one."  It is analogous to the Christian version of the insult we seem to agree on above: "You're not really worshiping [name of god/dess].  You're actually worshiping Satan/the devil/a demon/evil whatever, but you don't know it, because Satan/the devil/a demon/evil whatever makes you think you're worshiping something good." 

Claiming that the goddess I worship isn't really the goddess I worship, and is instead an evil being is insulting.  So is claiming that a Christian is unknowingly celebrating a pagan holiday, when s/he is actually celebrating a Christian holiday, even if that Christian holiday and/or its secular celebrations include some elements that are similar to some pagan traditions.

Yes, there ARE some common elements.  When I light a candle within a religious ritual, I'm using it to symbolize Brighid, Goddess of Fire.  When my brother, the Methodist minister, lights a candle within a religious ritual, he's using it to symbolize the Light Christ brought to the world, or something like that.  Just because we DO the same thing, doesn't mean that it MEANS the same thing.  Suggesting that my candle symbolizes the same thing as my brother's candle is incorrect and insulting to both of us.

A Christian family that dyes eggs at Easter is (most likely) participating in a secular custom attached to a holiday, EVEN IF the pagan family next door dyes eggs to celebrate the Goddess's blessings of fertility.  Just because we DO the same thing, doesn't mean that it MEANS the same thing.  Suggesting that the Christian family's eggs symbolize the same thing as the pagan family's eggs is incorrect and insulting to both.
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« Reply #107: June 17, 2011, 05:40:31 pm »

Yes, there ARE some common elements.  When I light a candle within a religious ritual, I'm using it to symbolize Brighid, Goddess of Fire.  When my brother, the Methodist minister, lights a candle within a religious ritual, he's using it to symbolize the Light Christ brought to the world, or something like that.  Just because we DO the same thing, doesn't mean that it MEANS the same thing.  Suggesting that my candle symbolizes the same thing as my brother's candle is incorrect and insulting to both of us.

EXACTLY. Common elements doesn't mean that the meaning of the elements is the same or that one group took the idea from the other. Or even that the common elements seen are actually religious practices. Neither Lyric or I are Christian, yet we hang up various Christian symbols at Christmas. Why? Because we like to decorate for the December holiday season. Our religion doesn't even really have a major holiday at that time of year, so trying to read religious similarities into what we do would be very silly. To us, its all secular.
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