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Author Topic: Christians battle each other over evolution  (Read 17058 times)
HeartShadow - Cutethulhu
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« Reply #30: May 29, 2009, 12:24:01 pm »

Like I tried to say before, learning of art as how it pertains to culture is one thing and it also can inspire a child to try something or actually learn something on their own. I realize my view is highly unpopular but this is how I see it. I don't want to say more or I will be accused of thread hijacking.

Not to mention completely ignoring large quantities of educational theory.
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« Reply #31: May 29, 2009, 01:05:31 pm »

Not to mention completely ignoring large quantities of educational theory.

Seriously.  Every single educational theorist I have read -- and, since I teach children's lit, I've read quite a few -- considers practical, hands-on education in the arts a key part of a well-rounded education.  That's not "recreation," that's sound educational theory:  kids learn to appreciate and understand art, music, drama a LOT more when they have the opportunity to DO it.
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« Reply #32: May 29, 2009, 01:11:43 pm »



In addition to displaying almost total ignorance of educational theory -- that is, the views of people who study how *learning actually happens* -- you've also got a nice "everyone is middle class and can totally afford music lessons, art supplies, and museum trips" thing going on there. 
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« Reply #33: May 29, 2009, 04:28:03 pm »

Recreation is the responsibility of the individual. If I had a child I rather have the schools help in teaching him to read and do math..if the child is interested in a hobby or pursuing an art skill or sports then that is my responsibility not the taxpayers.

I may be a bit biased as I took music all throughout middle school and took art for most of high school.  However, there are some who would say that English class should only stress grammer because literature isn't that important.  Sure, it's obviously a good way to read and introducing them to knew words, but who needs stuff like poetry, symbolism, metaphor, etc?  Besides, kids don't read anymore these days so it's probably a waste of time Roll Eyes

Not to mention that No Child Left Behind is forcing schools to focus on science, math and reading while almost ignoring social studies.  Now the importance of history classes could possibly be debated, but govermemt classes actually DO MATTER.  And while I don't think schools should make a big deal out of team sports like they do, with the growing obesity epidemic, general phys ed classes are probably vital for kids that wouldn't exercise anyway.

Quote
School is not the only place to be exposed to art..there are museums of many types as well as videos, books and just plain observation and good old fashioned initiative.

For those who can afford to go to museums/concerts (if there are any in their area), buy art supplies/musical instruments (believe me they don't come cheap) or pay for lessons.  I guess kids from poor families must remain uncultured and not be able to tap into their full potential.
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« Reply #34: May 29, 2009, 05:18:20 pm »

Recreation is the responsibility of the individual. If I had a child I rather have the schools help in teaching him to read and do math..if the child is interested in a hobby or pursuing an art skill or sports then that is my responsibility not the taxpayers.

So if someone wants to be a computer programmer or a plumber, public schools should provide training at taxpayer expense, but if someone wants to be a painter or a poet, they should have to come up with the money for training themselves?  That's just weird.

Besides, things like art, music and literature are a part of a well-rounded education. Physical activity (like sports) has been shown to increase the average person's ability to learn other, more mental subjects. I realize that teaching the test is considered education these days, but it seems to be far less effective at actually producing educated individuals that the methods used when I was in school in the 1960s and 1970s. It's really good at getting people to get higher scores on whatever standardized tests the state uses, however.
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« Reply #35: May 29, 2009, 05:39:33 pm »

So if someone wants to be a computer programmer or a plumber, public schools should provide training at taxpayer expense, but if someone wants to be a painter or a poet, they should have to come up with the money for training themselves?  That's just weird.

No to both actually. Public grade school is only there to provide the basics..the rest of the education is up to the individual, there is nothing weird about that. This is where colleges come into the picture..if one wishes to become a carpenter then they seek training for it and if they need help there is oodles of resources to get help.

As I have said, schools, no matter what kind they are, cannot give you everything, that is where personal initiative comes in.

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« Reply #36: May 29, 2009, 05:53:49 pm »

For those who can afford to go to museums/concerts (if there are any in their area), buy art supplies/musical instruments (believe me they don't come cheap) or pay for lessons.  I guess kids from poor families must remain uncultured and not be able to tap into their full potential.

Why should income be an obstacle? If someone is truly interested and adamant about pursuing, say, an art career then they will find a way. Last time I heard, there are programs to  help people and if there is not whatever happened to the idea of communities getting together and doing stuff themselves rather than depending on an already bankrupt government to do it for them?

Lastly one does not need fancy equipment if one wants to learn to paint for example...even dollar stores have some cheap crayons or paint or even sidewalk chalk....in my area kids are making it their daily mission to colorize all the sidewalks.

Being low income shouldn't be a cause to just give up.
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« Reply #37: May 29, 2009, 06:04:31 pm »

No to both actually. Public grade school is only there to provide the basics..the rest of the education is up to the individual, there is nothing weird about that. This is where colleges come into the picture..if one wishes to become a carpenter then they seek training for it and if they need help there is oodles of resources to get help.

As I have said, schools, no matter what kind they are, cannot give you everything, that is where personal initiative comes in.




You have a decidedly bizarre idea about what the "basics" are, when we are surrounded every day with vast amounts of music, art, and drama.  By contrast, many, many people do not use math -- do not *need* to use math -- beyond basic arithmetic in their everyday lives, so by your logic, that should also go.  

I am also not certain why you expect "personal initiative" to somehow replace the educational responsibilities of public schools to produce people with basic cultural literacy.  It is part of the *job* of schools to *expose* students to a wide range of fields and skills so that they have some idea of what they'd like to get more advanced training in, whether in private lessons, college, or whatever.  *Advanced* training in particular skills and areas of study -- including, y'know, science, math, literature, and history -- is, of course, beyond the resources of most public schools.  That's why it's called "advanced."

There are also many, many students for whom arts programs are absolutely vital outlets, and enormous amounts of testimonials from professional musicians, artists, etc., who described their school's arts programs as having been major factors in influencing not just their choice of profession, but also in some cases their decisions to stay in school at all.

And you're *still* going on as if you think every family has an infinite amount of resources that will enable this "private initiative."

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« Reply #38: May 29, 2009, 06:10:46 pm »

Why should income be an obstacle? If someone is truly interested and adamant about pursuing, say, an art career then they will find a way. Last time I heard, there are programs to  help people and if there is not whatever happened to the idea of communities getting together and doing stuff themselves rather than depending on an already bankrupt government to do it for them?

Lastly one does not need fancy equipment if one wants to learn to paint for example...even dollar stores have some cheap crayons or paint or even sidewalk chalk....in my area kids are making it their daily mission to colorize all the sidewalks.

Being low income shouldn't be a cause to just give up.

Nice classism, there.  Also, you're continuing to display a truly staggering ignorance about what education actually *means*.  "Learning to paint" involves a little bit more than just grabbing crayons and going for it, such as instruction, guidance, and encouragement.
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« Reply #39: May 29, 2009, 06:22:41 pm »

Last time I heard, there are programs to  help people and if there is not whatever happened to the idea of communities getting together and doing stuff themselves rather than depending on an already bankrupt government to do it for them?

I had never heard of communities getting together to teach children the arts.  I can't see that happening in poor rural areas where the focus would probably be on bringing in more income to the household.

Quote
Lastly one does not need fancy equipment if one wants to learn to paint for example...even dollar stores have some cheap crayons or paint or even sidewalk chalk....in my area kids are making it their daily mission to colorize all the sidewalks.

Being low income shouldn't be a cause to just give up.

Anyone can pick up a pencil or crayon and draw something.  With practice, they can get good.  However, if one is self-taught on the subject they miss out on finer details like composition, space, shading, etc.  And that is only if the medium involves drawing/painting something on a flat surface.  There is much more involved with sculpting and pottery what with making sure that it not only looks nice but is also functional and/or structurally sound.

And what about music?  That is something that can rarely be self-taught and there may not be someone in the area who can play a certain instument.  And while a piano or a violin sound good on their own, something like a trombone or a bass drum needs to be apart of an ensemble for it to.  And as I said before, instuments are not cheap.  I know from experiance that a clarinet from a pawn shop cost around $100 and there are just some families who are unable to even save up for one.

I am curious, do you feel the same way about literature being apart of English classes?  I'm not talking about teaching kids to read or building vocabulary/grammer skills.  It seems like literary analysis such as finding symbolism or an author's intent on writing something is at the same level as music, art or theater.  Also, what about creative writing (which is an art in of itself) portions of general English classes?  Going back on something I mentioned in my last post: History isn't vital in day to day life nor practical if persued in college.  Should they stop teaching that as well?
« Last Edit: May 29, 2009, 06:28:10 pm by Melamphoros, Reason: glaring spelling error. » Logged



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« Reply #40: May 29, 2009, 08:19:30 pm »

whatever happened to the idea of communities getting together and doing stuff themselves

What the hell do you think a government IS?

That's the point - to pool resources so that we can do more with them together than we can individually.

If government isn't doing that, what the hell is the POINT?
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« Reply #41: May 29, 2009, 08:53:32 pm »

No to both actually. Public grade school is only there to provide the basics..the rest of the education is up to the individual, there is nothing weird about that.

What you are espousing is an antiquated theory of education which ignores all modern research into the connection between arts in education and student achievement in the so called 'basics'. (Although admittedly, few outside my professional field are familiar with the new model of educational theory, or even aware that there are multiple theories in existence) I say this as a highly qualified (in the legal terms of my license, that's not just boasting), well-trained, well-read elementary educator who has spent a significant amount of time in training examining the reasoning behind, and evidence for, the fully justifiable inclusion of arts in education. If you are genuinely interested in seeing the professional research, evidence, and rationale for support of the arts, I encourage you to visit the Arts Education Partnership (http://aep-arts.org/) or the National Art Education Association (http://www.naea-reston.org/olc/pub/NAEA/home/). If you require additional information on the subject, feel free to let me know, I can hook you up with my professional sources as well (though they are dry and not designed for the general public, including a lot of terminology which may not make sense outside my field).
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« Reply #42: May 29, 2009, 10:19:24 pm »

What the hell do you think a government IS?

Didn't you know that government is a great evil that puts everyone down. It's not communities working together, and if you think it is, you are obviously a democrat, or even worse... a socialist.  Roll Eyes Tongue
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« Reply #43: May 30, 2009, 07:19:37 am »

Didn't you know that government is a great evil that puts everyone down. It's not communities working together, and if you think it is, you are obviously a democrat, or even worse... a socialist.  Roll Eyes Tongue

Guilty! Cheesy
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« Reply #44: May 30, 2009, 08:07:20 am »

Guilty! Cheesy

I suspect this board is full of people just as guilty. I know I am. Smiley
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