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Author Topic: Christians battle each other over evolution  (Read 17083 times)
Melamphoros
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« Reply #60: June 14, 2009, 01:29:50 pm »

I have two questions for you: do you have any children, and has your family ever lived at a low income level?  It seems to me like you just haven't experienced either of these things.  Personally, I very much agree that encouraging a child's interest in the arts is the responsibility of the parents (like when I was in junior high and reaaally wanted to quit band, but my mom made me stick it out).  But I think a child's exposure to the arts is a hugely necessary part of a well-rounded education.  The truth is, it's just not effective for kids to sit in a chair for eight hours every day and read about science, math and grammar.  They learn much better, and much more quickly, when presented with a variety of topics and a variety of activities throughout the day, including both concrete and abstract concepts and active and passive activities.

I'm graduating this year with my degree in music education, and my fiance has six more years to go 'til he gets his PhD, so I'll probably be low-income for a long time coming.  The fact is, we just can't afford to send our little girl to classes at an art studio, or to music lessons should she decide to play an instrument I couldn't teach her.  Does that mean she doesn't deserve to learn more than the basics of art or music?  The community support structure you talked about just doesn't exist.  There are no classes or things without a fee attached to them.  This is why the schools are there, in my opinion - to provide a free, well-rounded education to those children that need it.

*applauds above portion*

Quote
And as for religion in schools, I would have no problem if my local high school introduced an 'Overview of Religion' course in which they introduced students to the basic concepts of the largest of the world's religions (Christianity, Judaism, Islam, Hinduism, Buddhism) as long as the course was taught without bias and each major religion was given time in the sun.  Less populous religions would have to be the responsibility of the individual student, as obviously every single religion can't be touched on in a semester long course.  The problem I have with religion in schools is when it is only ONE religion, and it is taught like it is RIGHT.

We did something like this in 10th grade World History.  I think we spent one or two class periods going over each of them.
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« Reply #61: June 15, 2009, 09:13:21 am »


We see this issue from obviously different viewpoints. I watch these days as some children practically stumble around, their mouths hanging open, barely able to manage a sentence without peppering it with four letter expletives..can't even find North America on the map yet will spend hours upon hours flipping a skateboard in the air or wailing the same "tune" on a guitar and these kids are my/our future?

As for arts..whatever happened to neighborhoods pulling together? Isn't this one of the biggest complaints is that neighborhoods no longer come together? I am well aware of the issue of monetary resources which is why it would be nice if more neighbors and the surrounding neighborhoods would maybe turn off the t.v and act like a community especially for those who need it.

By acting together as a community, we are relying on ourselves rather than depending on a government whose only remedy for anything is to raise taxes.

Obviously I am the bad person here for daring to question the educational system which has become another sacred cow but I am not going to cower in the corner either and furthermore it is  not my intent to create so much strife and animosity but this is how I feel.

Thank You
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« Reply #62: June 15, 2009, 09:25:20 am »

Obviously I am the bad person here for daring to question the educational system which has become another sacred cow but I am not going to cower in the corner either and furthermore it is  not my intent to create so much strife and animosity but this is how I feel.

I think you've been at this forum long enough to understand the difference between "we disagree with what you're saying" and "you're the bad person", and also the difference between disagreement and animosity.  People disagree strongly with what you're saying.  OK, that happens.  We're all individuals, we all have different opinions, and sometimes they clash.  That doesn't mean anyone is saying you're "the bad person".

I also don't think--although I may be wrong--that people are disagreeing with you about how the American public educational system is run at the moment so much as they are disagreeing about the importance of things like art and music in public school curriculum.  That is, the educational system itself is not a sacred cow, people just think you're underestimating the importance of things that you're classing as "recreational" and overestimating those things' accessibility outside of a public school.  Those are related issues, but they're not identical.
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« Reply #63: June 15, 2009, 09:55:01 am »

We see this issue from obviously different viewpoints. I watch these days as some children practically stumble around, their mouths hanging open, barely able to manage a sentence without peppering it with four letter expletives..can't even find North America on the map yet will spend hours upon hours flipping a skateboard in the air or wailing the same "tune" on a guitar and these kids are my/our future?

As for arts..whatever happened to neighborhoods pulling together? Isn't this one of the biggest complaints is that neighborhoods no longer come together? I am well aware of the issue of monetary resources which is why it would be nice if more neighbors and the surrounding neighborhoods would maybe turn off the t.v and act like a community especially for those who need it.

By acting together as a community, we are relying on ourselves rather than depending on a government whose only remedy for anything is to raise taxes.

Obviously I am the bad person here for daring to question the educational system which has become another sacred cow but I am not going to cower in the corner either and furthermore it is  not my intent to create so much strife and animosity but this is how I feel.

Thank You

I completely can't figure out how this post hangs together.

You're complaining at the beginning about people that use profanity and prefer to skateboard rather than study.  Okay, that's called being a teenager.  It's annoying, but it's far from new - and most people outgrow it.

Then you talk about the community.  How is that not the same thing as, say, involving parents in the PTA and the like?  It's still community, but then you're using a building that's already there, a system that's already there, and the price is LOWER.

And again, government is there to serve the people.  A school is there because it's cheaper and more effective than each parent trying to educate their own child independently.  Now, arts are one of the things that keeps a lot of kids IN schools so they LEARN things like where North America is and now to talk intelligently - but you want there to be a separate community effort?  Which would cost more and be less effective and let more kids slip through the cracks?

I'm not saying that it's a sacred cow - I'm saying that it's just plain not logical.
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« Reply #64: June 15, 2009, 12:07:17 pm »

.can't even find North America on the map yet will spend hours upon hours flipping a skateboard in the air or wailing the same "tune" on a guitar and these kids are my/our future?


On a practical note, how many people have jobs as mapmakers compared to professional musicians?

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« Reply #65: June 15, 2009, 12:23:59 pm »

On a practical note, how many people have jobs as mapmakers compared to professional musicians?

Sperran

truthfully, I'm not even sure how to find out, but I'd guess there are more professional musicians, just a hunch.  However, I do find maps absolutely fascinating.  although does designing game world maps count, that might up the numbers somewhat.
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« Reply #66: June 15, 2009, 12:32:24 pm »

truthfully, I'm not even sure how to find out, but I'd guess there are more professional musicians, just a hunch.  However, I do find maps absolutely fascinating.  although does designing game world maps count, that might up the numbers somewhat.


I'm pretty certain it would be more professional musicians when you remember that most musicians don't make the big bucks, but are the folks playing in Holiday Inn lounges and at wedding receptions.  Then you add all the people playing music for commercials, movies, etc. and I'm pretty sure there are more musicians even with the game designers.  I guess you could check the labor statistics to find out for sure, though.

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« Reply #67: June 15, 2009, 01:49:50 pm »

We see this issue from obviously different viewpoints. I watch these days as some children practically stumble around, their mouths hanging open, barely able to manage a sentence without peppering it with four letter expletives..can't even find North America on the map yet will spend hours upon hours flipping a skateboard in the air or wailing the same "tune" on a guitar and these kids are my/our future?

The four letter explitives have NOTHING to do with this argument.  In fact, most of the adults over thirty I know do the exact same thing.  Also, last time I checked, skateboarding and guitar are not covered in phys ed or music classes so they would be something done outside of school.  And as most music classes don't teach guitar, so if they take lessons they would be private.

To drive my point further, the activity you describe seems to be done by middle or high school aged kids.  In the school systems I'm familiar with, music and art are electives at that level.  Basic geography like finding North America on a map is taught in elementary school.  Since the arts courses are taught maybe an hour per week in elementary school, most of the kids' time would go to the academic things.

Quote
As for arts..whatever happened to neighborhoods pulling together? Isn't this one of the biggest complaints is that neighborhoods no longer come together? I am well aware of the issue of monetary resources which is why it would be nice if more neighbors and the surrounding neighborhoods would maybe turn off the t.v and act like a community especially for those who need it.

By acting together as a community, we are relying on ourselves rather than depending on a government whose only remedy for anything is to raise taxes.

But as everyone else said, most of the time there is no money to pull together to teach kids stuff like music and art.  In the region I live, those who live in poor neighborhoods are afraid of getting shot if they go outside and they don't do much about it.  So if they won't rid their neighborhoods of crime, what chances are there they would teach their children art?

Quote
Obviously I am the bad person here for daring to question the educational system which has become another sacred cow but I am not going to cower in the corner either and furthermore it is  not my intent to create so much strife and animosity but this is how I feel.

Thank You

The school system isn't considered a sacred cow, not at least from where I'm standing.  Other posters have provided research that says that a well rounded education that includes the arts do help students.  And you know what?  I'm not backing down either until you answer the questions I asked you earlier:

Should literature be apart of English classes if it's not about teaching kids to read or building vocabulary/grammer skills?  Because really, who needs to know about things like symbolism and metaphor?  And then there is creative writing which is as artistic as music or painting.  Should English classes only be focused on vocabulary and grammer skills and how to write a research paper?

History isn't a vital subject to know (plus it's impractical to persue in college) so should schools stop offering that?  Hell, most people only need basic arithmatic in their day to day lives so should calculus be off the table?  And now that I think about it, most people don't need chemistry, earth science, or any biology except what is taught in health classes.  Should pubic schools stop teaching them?
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« Reply #68: June 15, 2009, 05:36:56 pm »

I completely can't figure out how this post hangs together.

You're complaining at the beginning about people that use profanity and prefer to skateboard rather than study.  Okay, that's called being a teenager.  It's annoying, but it's far from new - and most people outgrow it.

Then you talk about the community.  How is that not the same thing as, say, involving parents in the PTA and the like?  It's still community, but then you're using a building that's already there, a system that's already there, and the price is LOWER.

And again, government is there to serve the people.  A school is there because it's cheaper and more effective than each parent trying to educate their own child independently.  Now, arts are one of the things that keeps a lot of kids IN schools so they LEARN things like where North America is and now to talk intelligently - but you want there to be a separate community effort?  Which would cost more and be less effective and let more kids slip through the cracks?

I'm not saying that it's a sacred cow - I'm saying that it's just plain not logical.

No way will you ever be able to figure out where that post was coming from.  There were some accuracies in it, stoner teenage skateboarders and wanabe rock and roll stars are everywhere, have been for years. 

But the biggest fallacy that keeps coming up is the thing about neighborhoods pulling together to support yada yada.  That sort of activity hasn't happened since pre Viet Nam War days, and in looking at Black Waltz's profile, a birth year of 1971 doesn't give a lot of personal experience of the neighborhood dynamic in the pre Viet Nam War era.

I was in High School back then and received a lot of the neighborhood support he/she keeps referring to but since that time have raised two children to adulthood and have seen bureaucracy and money all but destroy our public school systems at the administration level, and tie our teachers hands behind their backs. 

Much of the community spirit that came to my aid has been washed away by either fear, apathy, or age.  Sometimes all three. 

When I was a kid most of the people in my neighborhood had kids in school.  Right now out of the 25 houses on the street where I live, only 5 of them house school age children.  It's a shame but most of the old farts seem to figure they've done their part.  They'll keep paying their property taxes but that's about the only thing they do to help.  We're starting to have a hard time passing bond issues to supply a little extra financial aid to the system.

I stay involved with my grand kids, that's about all.   But hell, it was the same way when I was putting my kids through public schools  just 8 or 9 years ago.  Anymore you just have to take care of your own, and hope that in supporting them you'll be helping some of the other kids too.

As far as the Christians wanting to take over science classes, that's old news here in Idaho.  Every High School here has a Mormon Seminary right beside the High School.  It's separated from school property by a 5' easement.  Seminary is close enough to the main school building so that students who choose Seminary as an elective can walk there without being late for class.   

Amanda Gefter, the author of the article that headed this thread has been a busy girl.  You ought to check out some of her other work too.
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« Reply #69: June 15, 2009, 05:45:09 pm »

But the biggest fallacy that keeps coming up is the thing about neighborhoods pulling together to support yada yada.  That sort of activity hasn't happened since pre Viet Nam War days, and in looking at Black Waltz's profile, a birth year of 1971 doesn't give a lot of personal experience of the neighborhood dynamic in the pre Viet Nam War era.

One of the main things that allowed this neighborhood effort back then was the fact that back then the norm of one parent working. This gave neighborhoods lots of people who were home all day and able to organize and do such community efforts. These days, most neighborhoods all all but deserted during the day as both parents have to work to pay the bills. Their is less time and peoplepower for these types of things. Sad
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« Reply #70: June 15, 2009, 06:24:23 pm »

One of the main things that allowed this neighborhood effort back then was the fact that back then the norm of one parent working. This gave neighborhoods lots of people who were home all day and able to organize and do such community efforts. These days, most neighborhoods all all but deserted during the day as both parents have to work to pay the bills. Their is less time and peoplepower for these types of things. Sad

I second this.  Working full time when you have kids can lead to no free time (and no social life).  It was a whole lot easier for me to rent band instruments than to spend the time teaching them what instruments I know.....
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