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Author Topic: Can I be Wiccan without worshiping the deities?  (Read 6975 times)
Elicia
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« Topic Start: May 28, 2009, 04:54:26 pm »

I am drawn to Wicca and Witchraft. I believe that we are connected to nature, I believe we all have spirits, I believe in reincarnation, and I believe in magick. However, I do not believe in the God and Goddess as deities. My beliefs are that it is possible for male and female energies or life forces to exist, but I do not think that they are Gods or Goddesses. I also believe that the use of magic may use pyschic energy to work with life force energies, or whatever you want to call it, to help make the purpose of the spell come true, rather than a spell being a request to the God or Goddess.

Can I still be considered a Witch? Can I consider myself Wiccan? Is practicing magick under these beliefs disrespectful to Wiccans or Pagans?

I'm really new to all of this and I really need some advice.
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« Reply #1: May 28, 2009, 05:18:46 pm »

Can I still be considered a Witch?

No reason why not. Witchcraft is just a type of magic. It can be practiced by anyone, regardless of their religion or lack of religion.  Note that some religions may forbid the practice of magic, it would be hard to claim to be a follower of such a religion and practice witchcraft, but that has nothing to do with what witchcraft is, but the rules of the particular religion.

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Can I consider myself Wiccan?


Not really. It would be like saying one does not believe in Jess, but saying one is a Christian anyway.

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Is practicing magick under these beliefs disrespectful to Wiccans or Pagans?

Some misinformed Wiccans seem to think that one must be Wiccan to practice witchcraft and might be offended, but that is their problem as their belief that one must be Wiccan to practice Witchcraft is simply incorrect.
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« Reply #2: May 28, 2009, 06:56:29 pm »

Can I still be considered a Witch? Can I consider myself Wiccan? Is practicing magick under these beliefs disrespectful to Wiccans or Pagans?

What Randall said, mostly. Witchcraft = fine, go for it. Wicca = involves deities, so if you're not into that, calling yourself Wiccan will at the very least confuse a lot of people, and generally make no sense, and why do that when you don't need to?

One thing to be aware of, though, is that some people bring some assumptions about deity into their exploration of Paganism with them. Some of how you phrased things touches on a couple of these, so I want to point out a few things just in case they're helpful (to you, or someone else)

1) Some Wiccans believe in a single God and Goddess, from whom all other named deities come. But some are polytheists, and believe there are many different deities who have different personalities, goals, interests, and approaches. Wiccan practice doesn't particularly care which of these beliefs is true, so  you can have someone who thinks the first one in ritual next to someone who thinks the second option with no problems.

2) That said, a bunch of Wiccan practices make no sense without deity in the picture - the idea of the Great Rite, of inviting deities to be present in ritual, the ideas of Drawing Down the Moon and Sun, etc. all depend on the interest of deity in particular things.

3) Magic, however, isn't one of those things. It's possible to do magic and ask a deity or deities to lend their blessing or advice or influence to something - but magic is generally more about what we as humans choose and apply our will to. The deities are more removed - they might offer advice or a way to frame a particular working, but they aren't what makes it happen.

4) Whether Wiccans - even trad Wiccans - 'worship' particular deities is a complex question. English as a language is heavily influenced by Christian religious approaches, so we don't have very good words for this in some way, but many serious Wiccans describe the relationship as a combination of:

- honoring (the way we honor other respected wise people in our lives - teachers, family members, mentors)
- serving (for people with a strong connection to a particular deity - offering our service to them to perform tasks they are particularly interested in. )
- working with (the way we'd work with a co-worker on a particular shared goal, but that doesn't necessarily imply any other serious long-term commitment that spans years or decades.)

5) People who are closer to the polytheist side of the spectrum may have relationships with all sorts of deities - and just like our relationships with our friends and family, they may vary in closeness.

For example, I have a strong 'service' commitment to one deity (the one I work with most closely personally). I honor and respect a number of others, and work with them regularly (deities my tradition and coven focus on.) And I have occasional times I work with a specific deity for a need or interest that is very intertwined with that deity's focus.

One really common example is someone who's looking for the right relationship. They might honor and work with a deity relating to love and romance for a period of time (as they're looking for a partner, and building a relationship), but as the relationship is established, they might taper off (politely, of course!)  And then maybe, they move on and build a relationship with a deity who's got a strong focus on tending the home (in varying forms) or with childbirth or being a parent, or with creating art, or with a particular kind of leadership, or any number of other goals that may ebb and flow in our lives at different times.
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« Reply #3: May 28, 2009, 07:15:30 pm »

I am drawn to Wicca and Witchraft. I believe that we are connected to nature, I believe we all have spirits, I believe in reincarnation, and I believe in magick. However, I do not believe in the God and Goddess as deities. My beliefs are that it is possible for male and female energies or life forces to exist, but I do not think that they are Gods or Goddesses. I also believe that the use of magic may use pyschic energy to work with life force energies, or whatever you want to call it, to help make the purpose of the spell come true, rather than a spell being a request to the God or Goddess.

Hi Elicia,

My inner feeling is, that Gods and Godesses are some named special aspects of the "pure power" which pervade all things and all creatures and events which happen.
Sometimes you can feel these "pure power" (and you are maybe overwhelmed).
You can work with these "pure power", but it is very difficult to communicate it, because you can difficultly describe or explain it; you maybe doesn´t find the right words to  fill  "that what is".
Every God/Goddess/Deity has a special meaning, a special part, an special aspect of this "pure power.
And they   ^   can help to focus for this special thing and to communicate with this aspect, and to communicate with other people.

But fundamentally you don´t need worshipping deities. It can help you, but it is no necessity - in my opinion.


I don´t belive in Gods. I know, that they are.  Wink


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« Reply #4: May 28, 2009, 07:22:22 pm »



The only thing that I would add to Randall and Jennet's most excellent advice would be a caution that for many people even Jennet's assertion that wiccish practices don't care which idea of deity is true goes a lot too far. While it is true that many people outside of initiatory Wiccan lineages choose to identify as Wiccan, this is not universally accepted outside of those groups (i.e. by the people and traditions from which wiccish practice has largely evolved. I say this only because you identified as very new and may not realise that what is and isn't Wicca is by no means a settled question in many pagan communities. My understanding would be that 'traditional' Wiccans (or just Wiccans, depending on your perspective) would answer your question with a categorical 'no' you can't be Wiccan, but yes you can be a witch. YMMV.
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« Reply #5: May 31, 2009, 05:02:28 am »

Yes, I think you can!  I was never much for "gods" or "Goddesses", and the christian idea that there is ONE MALE "deity" holding ALL the power always creeped me out, and THAT ain't an easy thing to do!  To me that idea was an open-ended excuse for said "deity" to ABUSE said power. Rememer the saying "absolute power corrupts absolutely" 
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« Reply #6: May 31, 2009, 06:55:37 am »

Yes, I think you can!  I was never much for "gods" or "Goddesses", and the christian idea that there is ONE MALE "deity" holding ALL the power always creeped me out, and THAT ain't an easy thing to do!  To me that idea was an open-ended excuse for said "deity" to ABUSE said power. Rememer the saying "absolute power corrupts absolutely" 

So then how do you follow the Wiccian path if you don't have any use for a god and goddess. Since, from my understanding, that is a very strong part of their beliefs?
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« Reply #7: May 31, 2009, 08:15:54 am »

Yes, I think you can!  I was never much for "gods" or "Goddesses", and the christian idea that there is ONE MALE "deity" holding ALL the power always creeped me out, and THAT ain't an easy thing to do!  To me that idea was an open-ended excuse for said "deity" to ABUSE said power. Rememer the saying "absolute power corrupts absolutely" 
I think you can use Wicca as a way to study, but so much of Wicca is based on a God and a Goddess, I can't see how you could consider yourself Wiccan without that basic belief.  I'm new to my study of Paganism and I use Wicca as a base for my study because I like the structure, the wheel of the year, worship of the earth, god and goddess and the fact that there is a lot of printed information available to study.  But I don't consider myself Wiccan because there are things I don't agree with and I don't practice.  I'm really not sure where I fit yet, but I'm taking what feels right to me and slowly working my way through different 'religions' to see where I fit (maybe I won't fit in any one religion?).  I consider myself Pagan, I consider myself spiritual, but I don't consider myself Wiccan.
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« Reply #8: July 29, 2009, 07:10:02 pm »

I am drawn to Wicca and Witchraft. I believe that we are connected to nature, I believe we all have spirits, I believe in reincarnation, and I believe in magick. However, I do not believe in the God and Goddess as deities. My beliefs are that it is possible for male and female energies or life forces to exist, but I do not think that they are Gods or Goddesses. I also believe that the use of magic may use pyschic energy to work with life force energies, or whatever you want to call it, to help make the purpose of the spell come true, rather than a spell being a request to the God or Goddess.

Can I still be considered a Witch? Can I consider myself Wiccan? Is practicing magick under these beliefs disrespectful to Wiccans or Pagans?

I'm really new to all of this and I really need some advice.

Hi! I'm still finding my feet too and doing alot of reading around Wicca at the moment but Like yourself I have always been drawn to Wicca, it makes so much sense to me and just reading about it gives me a great feeling of peace and fullfillment, like I've found the right spiritual path for me. 

Regarding your question about Deity, you have been given some good answers on here already but I just wanted to add my two pennies worth Smiley.  I think it depends on what you percieve Deity to be.  Personally, I don't believe in a God/Goddess who is a seperate being.  My perception of Deity, or the Divine if you will, is that it's the core energy of everything that exists.  For me the Divine is the life force within everything in nature and within yourself.  Because of this, Deity, of the Divine, is always present in the world.  If that makes sense. 

As for your question about being able to consider yourself Wiccan, from what i've read so far there are many different traditions within Wicca, so I guess it depends.  I've been reading about eclectic Wiccans too, i've learnt that they follow no specific tradition and create their own path, adopting beliefs and practices from different Wicca traditions or maybe even developing their own that feels right for them.

I apologise if i'm not very clear, I know what I mean and what I want to say but sometimes I struggle to get it down into words. 

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« Reply #9: July 29, 2009, 07:30:49 pm »

Yes, I think you can!  I was never much for "gods" or "Goddesses", and the christian idea that there is ONE MALE "deity" holding ALL the power always creeped me out, and THAT ain't an easy thing to do!  To me that idea was an open-ended excuse for said "deity" to ABUSE said power. Rememer the saying "absolute power corrupts absolutely" 

Now...Im new and could totally be wrong.  However, I think that as someone mentioned, you can use some of their teachings as a form of study and not use their Gods or Goddess.  You cant be Wiccan though because of that.  I think it would make you more of an Eclectic Pagan in that aspect...though someone please correct me if Im wrong. :]
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« Reply #10: July 30, 2009, 12:37:26 pm »

I am drawn to Wicca and Witchraft. I believe that we are connected to nature, I believe we all have spirits, I believe in reincarnation, and I believe in magick. However, I do not believe in the God and Goddess as deities. My beliefs are that it is possible for male and female energies or life forces to exist, but I do not think that they are Gods or Goddesses. I also believe that the use of magic may use pyschic energy to work with life force energies, or whatever you want to call it, to help make the purpose of the spell come true, rather than a spell being a request to the God or Goddess.

Can I still be considered a Witch? Can I consider myself Wiccan? Is practicing magick under these beliefs disrespectful to Wiccans or Pagans?

I'm really new to all of this and I really need some advice.

Elicia:

Some questions to ponder....

Why do you need to have that label, either "Wiccan" or "Witch"?

Is the label the most important thing, or is your practice more important?

Bear in mind that even the origins of the word "magic" (from the Persians) indicates something very similar to what the English called a "witch" - a "mage" was someone who not only worked magic but served the Divine Powers of their culture. They were priests as well as workers of their mysteries.

I should think that having a certain title is really secondary; you just do what you do and let other people guess at what you are and what the word is for your path.

This is going to sound very strange on this board, but it's the key behind these famous questions:

Who do the people say I am, and
Who do YOU say I am?

The asker did not just give information away about who he was to the people who were observing his actions and listening to his words. He simply let them come to their own conclusions, be they correct or incorrect.

So I say, just do your thing.

What WE say you are is up to us, and of course we take the risk of being very wrong when we just assume things about people! Smiley

RR

PS: Bear in mind that in terms of the development of words in the English language, "wicca/wicce" and "witch" really are and always have been the same word, despite what modern books and other people will tell you.

"Wicce/wicca" is the much older, archaic form of the word, but it was pronounced very similar to the word "witch." The difference was a matter of the gender of the person practicing "wiccecraeft" or "witchcraft".

In modern English, the word really is simply "Witch".

Most of your old-school Witches like Laurie Cabot, Raymond Buckland, Herman Slater, Dr. Leo Louis Martello and others did not use the word "Wiccan" to describe themselves, their practice or their religion. They used the word "Witch" and fought very hard to reclaim that word as both a religion and a magical practice.

So far as I remember, use of the word "Wicca" instead of "Witch" goes only back to the mid to late 1980s, when Scott Cunningham began publishing his books; I think he encouraged people to say "Wiccan" instead of "Witch".

I remember when I started in the late 1980s, there wasn't this huge divide between "Witch" and "Wiccan" as there is now.

Just some info to think about.
« Last Edit: July 30, 2009, 12:43:29 pm by redraven, Reason: Further historical information » Logged
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« Reply #11: July 30, 2009, 06:41:26 pm »

Bear in mind that even the origins of the word "magic" (from the Persians) indicates something very similar to what the English called a "witch" - a "mage" was someone who not only worked magic but served the Divine Powers of their culture. They were priests as well as workers of their mysteries.
While that's the mythic history about religious witchcraft that was common in Pagandom for several decades, there's no evidence to support it.  There's no indication that wicce/wicca/etc were words that had religious connotations for the Anglo-Saxons.

Quote
So far as I remember, use of the word "Wicca" instead of "Witch" goes only back to the mid to late 1980s, when Scott Cunningham began publishing his books; I think he encouraged people to say "Wiccan" instead of "Witch".
Gavin and Yvonne Frost were using it for their "Church and School of Wicca" going back to the late '60s/early '70s.  It could be argued that the religious witchcraft they taught was a different religion - but the same could be said of Dr Martello, for whom "witch" was the correct English-language term but who was in no sense "Wiccan" (and to a lesser extent of Laurie Cabot).  The idea that all the many, extremely diverse, sorts of religious witchcraft being presented in those early years represent a single religion is dependent on anthropological speculations that had already been academically refuted by the time Pagandom latched onto them.

It's used, in the single-c spelling (Wica) as far back as Gardner's Witchcraft Today (1954); this is also the spelling Buckland chose to use for his Seax-Wica in the early '70s.

It gradually came into widespread use during the '70s, as a result of the "Witch Wars" when various groups, traditions, and lines attempted to stake an exclusive claim to the word "witch".  Cunningham was reflecting a usage already common.

Quote
I remember when I started in the late 1980s, there wasn't this huge divide between "Witch" and "Wiccan" as there is now.
No, because people were still largely making the (false) assumption that there were no witches who could not be called Wiccan.  That erases or subsumes both the non-religious craft of witchcraft, and the many forms of religious witchcraft which are not (and which never claimed to be) Wiccan - Martello, Cabot, the Cochranist traditions, Feri, etc.

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« Reply #12: July 31, 2009, 08:43:46 am »

While that's the mythic history about religious witchcraft that was common in Pagandom for several decades, there's no evidence to support it.  There's no indication that wicce/wicca/etc were words that had religious connotations for the Anglo-Saxons.
Gavin and Yvonne Frost were using it for their "Church and School of Wicca" going back to the late '60s/early '70s.  It could be argued that the religious witchcraft they taught was a different religion - but the same could be said of Dr Martello, for whom "witch" was the correct English-language term but who was in no sense "Wiccan" (and to a lesser extent of Laurie Cabot).  The idea that all the many, extremely diverse, sorts of religious witchcraft being presented in those early years represent a single religion is dependent on anthropological speculations that had already been academically refuted by the time Pagandom latched onto them.

It's used, in the single-c spelling (Wica) as far back as Gardner's Witchcraft Today (1954); this is also the spelling Buckland chose to use for his Seax-Wica in the early '70s.

It gradually came into widespread use during the '70s, as a result of the "Witch Wars" when various groups, traditions, and lines attempted to stake an exclusive claim to the word "witch".  Cunningham was reflecting a usage already common.
No, because people were still largely making the (false) assumption that there were no witches who could not be called Wiccan.  That erases or subsumes both the non-religious craft of witchcraft, and the many forms of religious witchcraft which are not (and which never claimed to be) Wiccan - Martello, Cabot, the Cochranist traditions, Feri, etc.

Sunflower
Thank you for your post Sunflower, that actually put a lot of things in place for me.
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« Reply #13: July 31, 2009, 10:49:21 am »

I am drawn to Wicca and Witchraft. I believe that we are connected to nature, I believe we all have spirits, I believe in reincarnation, and I believe in magick. However, I do not believe in the God and Goddess as deities. My beliefs are that it is possible for male and female energies or life forces to exist, but I do not think that they are Gods or Goddesses. I also believe that the use of magic may use pyschic energy to work with life force energies, or whatever you want to call it, to help make the purpose of the spell come true, rather than a spell being a request to the God or Goddess.

Can I still be considered a Witch? Can I consider myself Wiccan? Is practicing magick under these beliefs disrespectful to Wiccans or Pagans?

I'm really new to all of this and I really need some advice.
Yes, you surely can be considered a witch, No you shouldn't consider your self Wiccan. The worship of the God & Goddess is a major part of being Wiccan. I don't think it's disrespectful unless you are putting yourself in the Wiccan catergory. I would say you are more Eclectic for now. If your looking for a title anyway. I wouldn't worry about titles at the moment, escpecially since your new to paganism. Just read and read and read!! It will eventually all come together. Wink
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« Reply #14: July 31, 2009, 11:53:40 am »

I am drawn to Wicca and Witchraft. I believe that we are connected to nature, I believe we all have spirits, I believe in reincarnation, and I believe in magick. However, I do not believe in the God and Goddess as deities. My beliefs are that it is possible for male and female energies or life forces to exist, but I do not think that they are Gods or Goddesses. I also believe that the use of magic may use pyschic energy to work with life force energies, or whatever you want to call it, to help make the purpose of the spell come true, rather than a spell being a request to the God or Goddess.

Can I still be considered a Witch? Can I consider myself Wiccan? Is practicing magick under these beliefs disrespectful to Wiccans or Pagans?

I'm really new to all of this and I really need some advice.



To me, the answer is no.  I am Wiccan and most everything we do is Deity focused.    If I were you, I wouldn't call yourself Wiccan.  You can call yourself a Witch if you practice Witchcraft.  But Wiccan, No.
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