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Author Topic: Structure vs Fluidity  (Read 4342 times)
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« Topic Start: April 29, 2007, 06:55:08 pm »

I was just reading Darkhawk's answer to Adoratrix in Dealing with Doubt, and his mention of "grids" struck me as interesting.

How much structure do we have in our beliefs?  How much structure do we need in our beliefs?  A Pantheon?  A Ceremony?  Ritual?  Worship?

What makes me an effective massage therapist is that I am very intuitive - my hands are constantly asking questions, and the client (equine or human) is answering in one way or another.  That is how I practice my Spirituality - always asking, and waiting for the answers.  It's organic, like tree roots that follow the water, and grow along the path of least resistance.

This does lead to problems; I am at once trying to keep up with some Internet forums, write a novel, build a massage clientele, and working a 48+ hour per week job.  Sometimes the tree needs pruning, or at least trimming.

So instead of a grid, or formal structure of any significant scale, I have fluidity.  Anyone's beliefs are valid to them, and I respect that.  In the case of Osama bin Laden and other fundies, I don't agree (in that they are detrimental to society as a whole), but I still respect these views as being truth from a certain point of view.

What structure I do have is on a very small scale, sort of like the grains of sand in an oyster; these grains being along the lines of all life is sacred, even tasty life such as deer and apples, or everyone has something to teach me, even if it is negative in nature, or if I'm not enjoying myself, I need to examine my intent.

Certainly lack of structure has hampered me in some ways.  I accept this as an imperfection, but I hardly expect myself to be perfect.  Being effective is much more important.  Perhaps more structure in some aspects of my life would help me be more effective, but that is something that will have to grow, organically, once I give it permission.

Thoughts?
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Darkhawk
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« Reply #1: April 29, 2007, 07:12:03 pm »

I was just reading Darkhawk's answer to Adoratrix in Dealing with Doubt, and his mention of "grids" struck me as interesting.

For source on that bit of Discordian catma, check out
http://www.principiadiscordia.com/book/56.php
and
http://www.principiadiscordia.com/book/57.php

Quote
How much structure do we have in our beliefs?  How much structure do we need in our beliefs?  A Pantheon?  A Ceremony?  Ritual?  Worship?

I comment, reasonably frequently, that I do much better when I have a structure that I'm ignoring.  In the years when I had no structure whatsoever but some neo-Wiccish stuff that mostly didn't actually work for me conceptually, I got nowhere and did nothing.  Now I have a couple of structures and am able to interpolate and build what I need to with them -- with just one of them, even, but the multiple ones are very good for me, personally.
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« Reply #2: April 29, 2007, 08:20:10 pm »


Stop making sense!  You've ruined my thread!  Cheesy

I comment, reasonably frequently, that I do much better when I have a structure that I'm ignoring.  In the years when I had no structure whatsoever but some neo-Wiccish stuff that mostly didn't actually work for me conceptually, I got nowhere and did nothing.  Now I have a couple of structures and am able to interpolate and build what I need to with them -- with just one of them, even, but the multiple ones are very good for me, personally.

So would you say this is like my "grains of sand?"  A little something to build from - or ignore?
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« Reply #3: April 29, 2007, 08:24:27 pm »

I was just reading Darkhawk's answer to Adoratrix in Dealing with Doubt, and his mention of "grids" struck me as interesting.

How much structure do we have in our beliefs?  How much structure do we need in our beliefs?  A Pantheon?  A Ceremony?  Ritual?  Worship?

What makes me an effective massage therapist is that I am very intuitive - my hands are constantly asking questions, and the client (equine or human) is answering in one way or another.  That is how I practice my Spirituality - always asking, and waiting for the answers.  It's organic, like tree roots that follow the water, and grow along the path of least resistance.

This does lead to problems; I am at once trying to keep up with some Internet forums, write a novel, build a massage clientele, and working a 48+ hour per week job.  Sometimes the tree needs pruning, or at least trimming.

So instead of a grid, or formal structure of any significant scale, I have fluidity.  Anyone's beliefs are valid to them, and I respect that.  In the case of Osama bin Laden and other fundies, I don't agree (in that they are detrimental to society as a whole), but I still respect these views as being truth from a certain point of view.

What structure I do have is on a very small scale, sort of like the grains of sand in an oyster; these grains being along the lines of all life is sacred, even tasty life such as deer and apples, or everyone has something to teach me, even if it is negative in nature, or if I'm not enjoying myself, I need to examine my intent.

Certainly lack of structure has hampered me in some ways.  I accept this as an imperfection, but I hardly expect myself to be perfect.  Being effective is much more important.  Perhaps more structure in some aspects of my life would help me be more effective, but that is something that will have to grow, organically, once I give it permission.

Thoughts?

Personally, I believe in questions.  I don't believe in answers.

That doesn't mean the answers aren't there, but I think that asking the question is the important issue .. the answer is in many ways framed by the question we ask and the mindset we approach it with.  If you look at the *answer* as what's important, you can miss how your question defines it.

Questions are critical.  They give you the shaping of what it is you're looking for.  Answers are an end.  Questions are a beginning.
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« Reply #4: April 29, 2007, 08:31:05 pm »

Personally, I believe in questions.  I don't believe in answers.

That doesn't mean the answers aren't there, but I think that asking the question is the important issue .. the answer is in many ways framed by the question we ask and the mindset we approach it with.  If you look at the *answer* as what's important, you can miss how your question defines it.

Questions are critical.  They give you the shaping of what it is you're looking for.  Answers are an end.  Questions are a beginning.


Personally I tend to question a great deal, both in my beliefs and in mundane life.   But although I question a lot, I tend to even question the answers I my get.  Many are discarded.   
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« Reply #5: April 30, 2007, 01:18:30 am »

So would you say this is like my "grains of sand?"  A little something to build from - or ignore?

It can be.

I think the wrong structure is worse than useless.  Like trying to drive nails with a wrench useless.  That was the issue I had with neo-Wicca -- the bits of it that made sense to me were few and far between, and I had to stretch and contort to make any of it systematic, and it wound up being just not worth the effort.

With a structure good enough to ignore, I wind up doing the stuff I do over in the Kemetic neo-reconstructionist subforum here -- I dig up the ancient practice, I look at the way modern groups have interpreted it or not incorporated it, and I say, "You people are all wrong" and do something tangentially related. Wink  But the thing is, what I produce there is useful for people who are using (or ignoring) the same structure: it's got foundations in the structure and exists in dialogue with it.
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« Reply #6: April 30, 2007, 01:36:28 am »

Stop making sense!  You've ruined my thread!  Cheesy
Anyone who has that reaction to excerpts from Principia Discordia should probably read all of it (assuming you haven't already).

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« Reply #7: April 30, 2007, 06:40:32 am »

Questions are critical.  They give you the shaping of what it is you're looking for.  Answers are an end.  Questions are a beginning.

Very well put. Smiley
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« Reply #8: April 30, 2007, 06:44:43 am »

Anyone who has that reaction to excerpts from Principia Discordia should probably read all of it (assuming you haven't already).

Sunflower

Do you find no sense in PD?  I haven't read all of it but those little gems are priceless to me.
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« Reply #9: April 30, 2007, 09:05:45 am »

I was just reading Darkhawk's answer to Adoratrix in Dealing with Doubt, and his mention of "grids" struck me as interesting.

How much structure do we have in our beliefs?  How much structure do we need in our beliefs?  A Pantheon?  A Ceremony?  Ritual?  Worship?

Thoughts?

I'm thinking we need a degree of structure, but that structure doesn't have to be regular.  A rock is a structure, the same way a cube is.  It has the potential to be every bit as solid, just not as predictable.

Pantheon, right now it's just me and Tonan over here.  I'm thinking there might be some legendary figures and some ancestors floating around, but they don't have much in common besides me.  I am the structure in this case. 

Ceremony... good gawds, I'm working on that one.  Still finding the structure.  I'm starting to see Wiccan-esque ritual as being ceremony, and whatever it is that I put together to fill the space left by it will be high ritual. 

Worship, I'm finding even though I thought I was unstructured, I am apparently quite structured, and just didn't realize it.  Sometimes you think you're walking on a random curve, and when all of a sudden years later the landscape looks familiar you come to realize you were walking in a circle all along, it was just bigger than you thought it was.

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« Reply #10: April 30, 2007, 09:31:15 am »

How much structure do we have in our beliefs?  How much structure do we need in our beliefs?  A Pantheon?  A Ceremony?  Ritual?  Worship?

Who's weWink

I think this is one of those things that varies greatly depending on the way a person's mind works.  It's a lot like...  you know how some people learn best in a classroom setting, with lecture and assignments and stuff like that to guide them along, and others do better if you just give them a starting point and a goal and let them get from point A to point B on their own?  It's like that.  Some people need a lot of structure, some people barely need any (or possibly even none at all).  It applies to a lot of things, really, not just beliefs.

Just to make it even more fun, a person's structure vs non-structure needs can change over time, too.  A few years back, I found that what worked best for me was little to no structure, just kind of going with it and exploring whatever happened to turn up.  Now I'm finding that I find a highly structured practice more meaningful and more effective for me personally, and am working on developing that sort of thing.
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« Reply #11: April 30, 2007, 06:39:46 pm »

Pantheon, right now it's just me and Tonan over here.  I'm thinking there might be some legendary figures and some ancestors floating around, but they don't have much in common besides me.  I am the structure in this case. 

Way cool!  Cool
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« Reply #12: April 30, 2007, 06:43:01 pm »

Who's weWink

I think this is one of those things that varies greatly depending on the way a person's mind works.  It's a lot like...  you know how some people learn best in a classroom setting, with lecture and assignments and stuff like that to guide them along, and others do better if you just give them a starting point and a goal and let them get from point A to point B on their own?  It's like that.  Some people need a lot of structure, some people barely need any (or possibly even none at all).  It applies to a lot of things, really, not just beliefs.

Just to make it even more fun, a person's structure vs non-structure needs can change over time, too.  A few years back, I found that what worked best for me was little to no structure, just kind of going with it and exploring whatever happened to turn up.  Now I'm finding that I find a highly structured practice more meaningful and more effective for me personally, and am working on developing that sort of thing.

"We" as in the readers of this thread. Wink

I see myself on a similar path to yours - starting with little structure, finding what works for me, and building a structure around that.  Grains of sand become pearls. Smiley
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« Reply #13: April 30, 2007, 08:55:33 pm »

Do you find no sense in PD?  I haven't read all of it but those little gems are priceless to me.
Me?  I find a great deal of sense in it - but a heckuva lot of people can't make head of tail out of it.  So, naturally, to those who connect with portions, I recommend the whole.

Sunflower
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« Reply #14: May 01, 2007, 06:54:17 am »

Me?  I find a great deal of sense in it - but a heckuva lot of people can't make head of tail out of it.  So, naturally, to those who connect with portions, I recommend the whole.

Sunflower

Cool
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