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Author Topic: mental disorders  (Read 7365 times)
unbendingwill
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« Topic Start: June 18, 2009, 10:44:45 am »

My question today is....does having a mental disorder effect your spell workings?  Is it possible to be bipolar and cast a spell or be schizophrenic, hear voices and still have a relationship with a God?  Is it possible for a schizophrenic person to differentiate between the voices they hear and the voice of a God?  Would stinking thinking get in the way of casting a spell?  Just wanted to hear you guy's opinions on this matter....
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« Reply #1: June 18, 2009, 12:01:38 pm »

My question today is....does having a mental disorder effect your spell workings?  Is it possible to be bipolar and cast a spell or be schizophrenic, hear voices and still have a relationship with a God?  Is it possible for a schizophrenic person to differentiate between the voices they hear and the voice of a God?  Would stinking thinking get in the way of casting a spell?  Just wanted to hear you guy's opinions on this matter....

Well, we think with our brains - so things that mess with the brain, mess with our thinking.  I don't see any way to avoid that.

That said, I think that mental disorders don't mean you can't be religious and everything you asked - just that it's harder.  I don't know about the schizophrenia issue - I don't know enough about that disorder.  But to be able to cast spells and have a relationship with the Divine and the rest?

Yes, of course.  There's no rule saying "God loves X, Y, and Z - but not those stinking mental defectives" or any crap like that.  (And if there was?  I wouldn't worship that god!)
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« Reply #2: June 18, 2009, 05:14:01 pm »

My question today is....does having a mental disorder effect your spell workings?

It could, so one would have to be more careful -- just like one would if one were very tired, on medications, feeling sick, etc.

Quote
Is it possible to be bipolar and cast a spell or be schizophrenic, hear voices and still have a relationship with a God?

I don't see why not. Gods, after all, are not limited by the same types of things that limit humans.

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Is it possible for a schizophrenic person to differentiate between the voices they hear and the voice of a God?
 

This would probably need on the individual schizophrenic person.
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« Reply #3: June 18, 2009, 08:51:11 pm »

Is it possible for a schizophrenic person to differentiate between the voices they hear and the voice of a God? 

Here's the thoughts of a self-proclaimed crazy person:

Many spiritually attuned people I have spoken with speak of "hearing voices."  They usually don't mean literally.  It's generally a sense that there are thoughts in their mind that come from some place that was external, and they interpret those thoughts as coming from one or more deities.  I have several family members who are psychotic, and I have worked with individuals with schizophrenia when I was getting my Master's degree.  When people with schizophrenia talk about hearing voices, they do actually experience them as voices, similar to what you would experience if you were talking to one of your friends.  I think that if someone is literally hearing voices, they should proceed with caution.  I'm not saying that actually hearing them is necessarily a sign of a psychotic break, but it is something to be very, very careful about!

I'm not schizophrenic, but I am bipolar.  When it comes to extreme states of mind, I've found it important (for me) to be surrounded by friends who are fairly down to earth and know me well enough to know what signs to watch for.  They know what meds I'm on and they've seen my ups and downs.  If something intense is happening and I think it's a religious experience, I tell my friends about it.  Typically they're very interested and generally happy for me, but if I say something that concerns them, they'll tell me. 

I've had one or two experiences that have really concerned my friends.  At one point I thought that I was talking to the Goddess Brigid, and that she was telling me that an old college mentor of mine was going to die.  I felt like she was pushing me to call him immediately and inform him of his impending doom.  Luckily a friend of mine talked me into just sending him a quick e-mail saying "I had a weird dream about you.  I know this sounds crazy, but are you okay?"  (He was).  It's fortunate that I kept it to that or I would have called the poor man, insisted he was dying and demanded that he teach me everything he knows so I can carry on his life's work.  I'm not exaggerating here.  It was that bad.  I highly doubt the "voice" I heard actually came from Brigid.

Then there are the benevolent "voices" in my head that comfort me when I'm afraid and whap me with the "cosmic 2 X 4" if I'm not living in line with Ma'at.  They have never told me to do anything that would be potentially disruptive or harmful.  I think the first three things Wesir told me to do were a) stop beating myself up so much. b) stop throwing my clothes on the floor in my room if I wanted to keep a shrine there and c) stop stealing great big piles of pens from work.  Small, common-sense things like that ended up transforming my life. 

I think a big distinction that I make, in terms of whether "voices" are legitimate is whether they tell you to do things that make sense, that are healthy.  I'd be very wary of a voice that told me to quit my job immediately so I could knock down the CU stadium and replace it with a giant pyramid (though you've got to admit that would be cool).  My advice to anyone, with or without mental illness, who was doing intense spiritual work would be to approach everything with a healthy amount of skepticism.  Any experiences that are valuable and "real" will stand up to the scrutiny.  The Gods are persistent like that Tongue
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« Reply #4: June 19, 2009, 12:15:37 pm »

Here's the thoughts of a self-proclaimed crazy person:

Many spiritually attuned people I have spoken with speak of "hearing voices."  They usually don't mean literally.  It's generally a sense that there are thoughts in their mind that come from some place that was external, and they interpret those thoughts as coming from one or more deities.  I have several family members who are psychotic, and I have worked with individuals with schizophrenia when I was getting my Master's degree.  When people with schizophrenia talk about hearing voices, they do actually experience them as voices, similar to what you would experience if you were talking to one of your friends.  I think that if someone is literally hearing voices, they should proceed with caution.  I'm not saying that actually hearing them is necessarily a sign of a psychotic break, but it is something to be very, very careful about!

I'm not schizophrenic, but I am bipolar.  When it comes to extreme states of mind, I've found it important (for me) to be surrounded by friends who are fairly down to earth and know me well enough to know what signs to watch for.  They know what meds I'm on and they've seen my ups and downs.  If something intense is happening and I think it's a religious experience, I tell my friends about it.  Typically they're very interested and generally happy for me, but if I say something that concerns them, they'll tell me. 
well...you put your self out there and I respect that so will I ...the reason I asked this question is because I was diagnosed with schizophrenia..basically I hear voices...I hear them not so much any more because of the wonders of modern medication...abillify and topomax are my gods now...so to speak anyways...I used to hear them out side of my self about 10 feet back as one would hear a normal conversation...I thought I was being spiritually followed around (being stalked by a shamatic lover actually) by this guy but it turned out that I was just crazy...eventually I had the unique opportunity of assigning the voices to a real person...so I was able to talk to the guy ...test the guy and find out that he wasn't this big shamen or that he wasn't stalking me or a voice in my head...that in fact I was just hearing voices...it rocked my world...it was one of the most crushing things I ever had to deal with because I wanted so bad to believe that I had a mental connection with someone like that ...that someone would love me enough to follow me around like that...that someone could be that powerful...anyways...it was what it was...just a voice inside my head...and I struggle with that now on a daily basis...but it makes it hard for me in therefore to ever trust that a voice that I was to hear was ever to be real again...so you see..how can I tell a Gods voice from one in my head?  The ones in my head did talk back and although sometimes they made no sense sometimes they would have normal conversations with me...so you see it can be confusing...I guess it's just something I have to live with...
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« Reply #5: June 19, 2009, 08:05:07 pm »

I thought I was being spiritually followed around (being stalked by a shamatic lover actually) by this guy but it turned out that I was just crazy...eventually I had the unique opportunity of assigning the voices to a real person...so I was able to talk to the guy ...test the guy and find out that he wasn't this big shamen or that he wasn't stalking me or a voice in my head...that in fact I was just hearing voices...it rocked my world...it was one of the most crushing things I ever had to deal with because I wanted so bad to believe that I had a mental connection with someone like that ...that someone would love me enough to follow me around like that...

*hugs* You are not alone in this struggle...though I know it can feel like that sometimes!

I cannot think of a sure-fire way to tell the difference between mystical experiences and psychotic hallucinations.  I do not believe there is a hard and fast line. 
I would recommend the book "Healing the Split" by the psychiatrist John E. Nelson. He's not going to give you a hard and fast line either, but he's one of the few doctors out there who has even attempted to address the subject! 

Please don't be afraid to "put yourself out there".  No matter what you've experienced, there are people who have seen weirder! 

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« Reply #6: June 20, 2009, 01:20:39 pm »

*hugs* You are not alone in this struggle...though I know it can feel like that sometimes!

I cannot think of a sure-fire way to tell the difference between mystical experiences and psychotic hallucinations.  I do not believe there is a hard and fast line. 
I would recommend the book "Healing the Split" by the psychiatrist John E. Nelson. He's not going to give you a hard and fast line either, but he's one of the few doctors out there who has even attempted to address the subject! 

Please don't be afraid to "put yourself out there".  No matter what you've experienced, there are people who have seen weirder! 


thank you for the kind words!!! Smiley  I'll have to ck out the book, it sounds fascinating!  I'm surprised that someone put their reputation out on the line like that. Considering the fact that most psy. doctors look at magic as hokey...yeah..it's been a hard road but I'm sure alot of other people can relate to my story.  Maybe not exactly but in some respects!
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« Reply #7: June 20, 2009, 03:38:20 pm »

thank you for the kind words!!! Smiley  I'll have to ck out the book, it sounds fascinating!  I'm surprised that someone put their reputation out on the line like that. Considering the fact that most psy. doctors look at magic as hokey...yeah..it's been a hard road but I'm sure alot of other people can relate to my story.  Maybe not exactly but in some respects!

Yes, do check out the book and do let me know what you think of it when you're done!
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« Reply #8: June 30, 2009, 03:50:05 pm »


Then there are the benevolent "voices" in my head that comfort me when I'm afraid and whap me with the "cosmic 2 X 4" if I'm not living in line with Ma'at.  They have never told me to do anything that would be potentially disruptive or harmful.  I think the first three things Wesir told me to do were a) stop beating myself up so much. b) stop throwing my clothes on the floor in my room if I wanted to keep a shrine there and c) stop stealing great big piles of pens from work.  Small, common-sense things like that ended up transforming my life. 

I think a big distinction that I make, in terms of whether "voices" are legitimate is whether they tell you to do things that make sense, that are healthy.  I'd be very wary of a voice that told me to quit my job immediately so I could knock down the CU stadium and replace it with a giant pyramid (though you've got to admit that would be cool).  My advice to anyone, with or without mental illness, who was doing intense spiritual work would be to approach everything with a healthy amount of skepticism.  Any experiences that are valuable and "real" will stand up to the scrutiny.  The Gods are persistent like that Tongue


I absolutely adore these two paragraphs for the utter common sense in them.  That is one area of Egyptian cosmology that I have yet to find expressed quite so perfectly in other cultures:  the concept of Ma'at and how everything -- even the things that do not make sense to us -- ultimately serves to uphold the Order of things.  It is not so much a measuring rod (although we do apply it to ourselves that way at times), but rather a rudder to assure our course is correct.  I have never been advised wrongly by Ma'at, never been asked to do something against the natural order, never found Her guidance questionable. 

I think this was great advice to give and wonderful that you shared your story with someone in need of insight.  Bravo!  (oh, and incidentally, I love your signature line quote, too... that's one of my favorites!)

Blessings,
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« Reply #9: June 30, 2009, 08:18:40 pm »


I absolutely adore these two paragraphs for the utter common sense in them.  That is one area of Egyptian cosmology that I have yet to find expressed quite so perfectly in other cultures:  the concept of Ma'at and how everything -- even the things that do not make sense to us -- ultimately serves to uphold the Order of things.  It is not so much a measuring rod (although we do apply it to ourselves that way at times), but rather a rudder to assure our course is correct.  I have never been advised wrongly by Ma'at, never been asked to do something against the natural order, never found Her guidance questionable. 

I think this was great advice to give and wonderful that you shared your story with someone in need of insight.  Bravo!  (oh, and incidentally, I love your signature line quote, too... that's one of my favorites!)

Blessings,
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Thank you, Sitara. Welcome to T.C.  Smiley
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« Reply #10: July 06, 2009, 03:29:31 am »

My question today is....does having a mental disorder effect your spell workings?  Is it possible to be bipolar and cast a spell or be schizophrenic, hear voices and still have a relationship with a God?  Is it possible for a schizophrenic person to differentiate between the voices they hear and the voice of a God?  Would stinking thinking get in the way of casting a spell?  Just wanted to hear you guy's opinions on this matter....

I'm not sure so much about spellcasting as it's not something I do myself to really have anything to say about it, but as far as having a relationship with the gods, I think it's entirely possible as does my therapist. His take on whether something is delusion or real seems to start with it being far more likely to be real if it's beneficial to the individual- for example if the voices are of comfort to the person versus telling them to go out and chop someone to pieces. He also thinks that certain things like being dissociative can actually be an advantage in certain religious practices, if the person can recognize and learn to control it (some people can)

Myself, I am mildly dissociative, the specific form called depersonalization (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Depersonalization). I've experienced this going back at least til I was seven or eight years old and I am completely used to it, so much that it has no visible outward affect on my life and ability to function, so much that no one, including people that know me best like my girlfriend, ever knows that my grip on reality is a bit slipped unless I say so. I'll sometimes be in a state like this for a couple of days at a time (though usually it's more like a few minutes to a few hours, and often, though not always, I can willingly get myself out of such a state.)

A while ago, I started working on purposefully putting myself into a depersonalized state (yes, my therapist is aware of this and is well aware of most of the in-depth details of my religious practice and relationships with the gods.) and have come to realize that it's pretty much the same as the meditative trance states that I've been using for several years now. It "feels" slightly different when I get there on purpose, and if I'm consciously thinking of dissociation or of meditation- my theory is that either it's because they're triggered differently, or because I've made a differentiation between the two myself.

In any case...I do have a mental condition, one which, however mild, people are often surprised to find out that I'm not medicated for it, and I, for the most part, have no issues with having relationships with various gods (and when I do have problems, it's generally nothing to do with my psychological state, and much more to do with whether or not I'm doing the things I'm supposed to do, and on a couple occasions, I've put up subconscious blocks as a result of letting certain issues of someone else's affect me in ways that they should not.)

I'm not sure if this really answers your question, but that's my bit of experience as far as mental health issues and religious activity goes.
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« Reply #11: July 06, 2009, 01:14:48 pm »

I think a big distinction that I make, in terms of whether "voices" are legitimate is whether they tell you to do things that make sense, that are healthy.

Don't know if this is any help, but here's what that made me think of:

Among the Daniel Ladinsky "renderings" (i.e., a lot looser than "translations" would be) of the poetry of the Sufi master Hafiz, is a little gem about "hearing voices." I'd be tempted to quote the whole thing, but alas, plagiarism... *sigh* The gist is this:

A seeker comes to a spiritual teacher and asks him whether the visions the seeker has been having are real visions.

The teacher replies (and I hope this very short quote is okay):

How many goats do you have...

How many rose bushes in your garden,
How many children,
Are your parents still alive,
Do you feed the birds in winter?

The seeker, of course, is incensed at this cavalier response to his "sublime visions"!

But the teacher explains that this IS, in fact, the true test: "real" visions are those which make us, not more sublime, but more profoundly human.

I've often asked myself whether the things I feel are true or real, when they don't mesh well with the rational world that my waking self has come to accept. What I ended up choosing as a yardstick is whether those non-mundane feelings and experiences are calling me to be more deeply myself, in ways that are real in the waking world. If they are, I'm cool. If they should seem to be calling me to suddenly change, deny, or overreach myself, I'll think twice before going there.

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« Reply #12: July 06, 2009, 01:42:57 pm »

I do have a mental condition, one which, however mild, people are often surprised to find out that I'm not medicated for it

I just had to comment on this because it "hit home" for me in a big way: I have serious issues with the idea that every departure from normality should be medicated, and the prevalence of this paradigm in modern medicine. Ugh! Good for you for resisting it. With me it's depression, and while I fully accept the value of meds for those who want and need them, I am sick and tired of having them metaphorically shoved down my throat! "Normal" is a statistical concept which we have somehow managed to turn into a moral concept. "Functional" and "happy"/"satisfied" are far more useful words.

With regard to the original poster's question, I don't know enough about the particular disorder to have a useful opinion on how it might affect one's magical practice. But I do have just a suspicion that, in general - as long as we're careful about it - having had the experience, at least once, of some sort of non-normal mind-space is just as likely to be a help as a hindrance, because it can mean that you've learned to think more consciously about your own mind-states. If nothing else, you have a set of ideas and vocabulary that others may not, and which may be useful in making exactly the kind of distinctions that you're asking about.

What's the old saying about "no disease, short life - one disease, long life" or some such? The idea being that if you know your own weaknesses you can work with them or work around them, whereas if you think you have none, they will catch you unawares. Smiley

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« Reply #13: July 06, 2009, 09:15:31 pm »

My question today is....does having a mental disorder effect your spell workings?  Is it possible to be bipolar and cast a spell or be schizophrenic, hear voices and still have a relationship with a God?  Is it possible for a schizophrenic person to differentiate between the voices they hear and the voice of a God?

I know someone with schizoaffective disorder, who periodically hears voices, who has an extremely spiritual relationship with the spirits and the entities he worships. So yes, I believe it is possible. He's even used his spiritual connection to the spirits to help minimise the effects of psychotic episodes.

And then of course there is the link between schizophrenia and shamanism, which, in The World of Shamanism by Roger Walsh, suggests that shamanism actually gives some initiates potential mastery over their own schizophrenic symptoms. I highly recommend it as it has significant sections devoted to deconstructing the differences between those who hear voices as a 'disorder' and those who hear them as a community function. Very interesting stuff.

I am not schizophrenic, but I do have dissociative identity disorder / PTSD (also unmedicated, though I am in therapy), and while I don't know how much easier it is to perform rituals / spells / offerings / journeying etc. as a 'mentally well' person, I do know I can do all of those things as a disordered person. And not only that, but perform them well enough that I am able to improve my health, and not harm it further.
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« Reply #14: July 08, 2009, 02:52:07 am »

My question today is....does having a mental disorder effect your spell workings?  Is it possible to be bipolar and cast a spell or be schizophrenic, hear voices and still have a relationship with a God?  Is it possible for a schizophrenic person to differentiate between the voices they hear and the voice of a God?  Would stinking thinking get in the way of casting a spell?  Just wanted to hear you guy's opinions on this matter....

I have a form of Schizophrenia.  It is very difficult sometimes to know what the nature of my auditories is.  I have confidence in my deities, however, and I know that they would not lead me astray nor say the kinds of things to me that my auditories say. 

I also refrain from spellwork and ritual when I am in a relapse.
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