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Author Topic: What do you do at your circle/coven?  (Read 12202 times)
Gypsywitch15
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« Topic Start: June 22, 2009, 02:41:54 pm »

I started a circle almost 2 years ago in the local community. Last year, the base chapel ( I'm in the airforce) approved an earth based faith group ( we get funding from the base chapel for various things and resources). It is open to all earth based faith peoples. The person who started it, is now leaving for another base, and a friend of mine is taking over ( My circle basically merged with the base circle). I didn't agree with alot of the things the previous sponsor had done with the circle, and have not voiced my concerns. I'm hoping when he leaves, alot of that stuff will go away. My friend is pretty capable, but I think she's kind of disorganized. Circles have become more of a social gathering, than a spiritual one. For instance...2 weeks ago we were supposed to be going over dreams. I assumed this was going to include some theorys on why we dream, lucid dreaming, prophetic dreaming, dream spells, dream symbolism ETC...we made dream catchers and worked on robes and most people goofed off. there was maybe a 2 min conversation about dreams. I really want to be like " Let me handle the group agian because I think I did a better job". But I don't want to come off as rude or controlling....because I am very controlling and am very aware of this character flaw. I just want to see the group progress and mean something and do something other than sit around and chit chat. Also, they go on FOREVER....Its supposed to start at 11:00am. We never start until 11:30, and we're never done until 1:30pm or later. I personally cannot dedicate THAT MUCH time on a saturday. I am married with a kid and a house to take care of, chores to do etc...and schoolwork. I would like to see us start at 11:00am on the dot, get to the point, and if people want to sit around and socialize and goof off afterwards, by all means go ahead...I have other things I need to do today. Our weekends are the only real time my family and I have together, and saturdays are usually sucked up by circle adn chores. I don't want it to be like that. I want to go to circle get my spiritual fill in the hour, hour and a half and go on with my day. I don't think this is unrealistic. Opinions? thoughts? Hpw does your circle/coven run things?? Thanks!
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« Reply #1: June 22, 2009, 03:01:15 pm »

The person who started it, is now leaving for another base, and a friend of mine is taking over ( My circle basically merged with the base circle). I didn't agree with alot of the things the previous sponsor had done with the circle, and have not voiced my concerns. I'm hoping when he leaves, alot of that stuff will go away.

Well..why not speak to your friend about this and use this chance to voice your concerns. Use the example you just gave us about talking how the members were supposed to be discussing dreams but instead there was little discussion and mostly just idle banter.

Let her know that you and others come for a reason other than general socializing, I do not see that as being out of line or unreasonable. Maybe you could help her become a bit more organized and how to take lead maybe?

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« Reply #2: June 22, 2009, 04:50:57 pm »

Its supposed to start at 11:00am. We never start until 11:30, and we're never done until 1:30pm or later. I personally cannot dedicate THAT MUCH time on a saturday. I am married with a kid and a house to take care of, chores to do etc...and schoolwork. I would like to see us start at 11:00am on the dot, get to the point, and if people want to sit around and socialize and goof off afterwards, by all means go ahead...I have other things I need to do today.

Many groups handle this by either having social time before or after the ritual/class/whatever. Either way, the scheduled event starts on time. Those who can't stay forever can be there just for that while those who have more time can arrive at the social start time or stay late for it.
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« Reply #3: June 22, 2009, 05:07:16 pm »

Opinions? thoughts?

It isn't unrealistic for a meeting to start on time, but I think the real question here is what do the other members of the group want?  You've talked about what you want out of a group, but do the others in this group share your point of view on how things should  be?  If not, it may be time to find or start a new circle.  If the other members of the group share your vision, then you could, as a group, ask the new leader for what you want (whether that's punctual start times, a separate social time, more spiritual focus, etc).
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« Reply #4: June 22, 2009, 08:41:10 pm »

I started a circle almost 2 years ago in the local community. Last year, the base chapel ( I'm in the airforce) approved an earth based faith group ( we get funding from the base chapel for various things and resources). It is open to all earth based faith peoples. The person who started it, is now leaving for another base, and a friend of mine is taking over ( My circle basically merged with the base circle). I didn't agree with alot of the things the previous sponsor had done with the circle, and have not voiced my concerns. I'm hoping when he leaves, alot of that stuff will go away. My friend is pretty capable, but I think she's kind of disorganized. Circles have become more of a social gathering, than a spiritual one. For instance...2 weeks ago we were supposed to be going over dreams. I assumed this was going to include some theorys on why we dream, lucid dreaming, prophetic dreaming, dream spells, dream symbolism ETC...we made dream catchers and worked on robes and most people goofed off. there was maybe a 2 min conversation about dreams. I really want to be like " Let me handle the group agian because I think I did a better job". But I don't want to come off as rude or controlling....because I am very controlling and am very aware of this character flaw. I just want to see the group progress and mean something and do something other than sit around and chit chat. Also, they go on FOREVER....Its supposed to start at 11:00am. We never start until 11:30, and we're never done until 1:30pm or later. I personally cannot dedicate THAT MUCH time on a saturday. I am married with a kid and a house to take care of, chores to do etc...and schoolwork. I would like to see us start at 11:00am on the dot, get to the point, and if people want to sit around and socialize and goof off afterwards, by all means go ahead...I have other things I need to do today. Our weekends are the only real time my family and I have together, and saturdays are usually sucked up by circle adn chores. I don't want it to be like that. I want to go to circle get my spiritual fill in the hour, hour and a half and go on with my day. I don't think this is unrealistic. Opinions? thoughts? Hpw does your circle/coven run things?? Thanks!
Does your group have a written plan, goals and a schedule?  If not, I wonder if you could offer to coordinate something like that?  You could type out what the objective is for the group and even stress how important it is to be polite and be on time so that everyone an enjoy the group.  I'm in a small group and we have a schedule each time we meet and a basic agenda.  We don't always stick strictly to the agenda, but it gives us something to fall back on should we get sidetracked. 

Also by offering to coordinate the schedule with the leader you are offering to find a solution to the problem and be a part of it (without taking control).  I'm someone who is always on time, its how I was raised and it makes me crazy when people are 30-45-60 min. late to events so I completely understand your frustrations.  I think talking to the leader, possibly addressing the group as a whole and offering to do something constructive would be a good first step.
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« Reply #5: June 22, 2009, 10:13:58 pm »

Hpw does your circle/coven run things?? Thanks!

I think there's a couple of things going on here.

1) People have different ideas of time and flow.

Some people really need the time before a gathering to get into the mood of doing the work (and this may be particularly true somewhere like an Air Force base, where a lot of the rest of your life is heavily structured - making the mental shift to spiritual practice can be trickier.)

And some people just don't value time in the same way. Or are jerks about getting together to focus on something. Or whatever else.

One answer might be to have a 'gather' time that's for socialising, giving a buffer for people running a little late, etc. and then a firm start time (which needs someone to enforce it.) And then a clear 'end' time, with social time afterwards.

For example, you could do "We'll start gathering at 10:30, and be ready to begin at 11. We'll finish at 12:30, and folks who want to socialise more can do so over lunch at X location." This works, because the people who just want the social time can show up at that location at 12:30 - and the folks who want to do the work can show up ready to do it.

2) The actual time might be worth re-evaluating.

I've had a (Pagan related, but not actually religious group focused) meetng that's moved times on the weekend. Bar none, I find a start time between 11 and 2pm the *worst* in terms of breaking up my day. You get up, you do a few things at home, but you don't really have time to start a major project (unless you get up really early) because you need to wrap up and head out for the meeting. And then, coming back, you only have a couple of hours before you need to think about dinner and evening plans.

I've found that either an earlier morning meeting (like 9am, though few people will go for that on a weekend) or a later afternoon one (like 3 or 4pm) can work a lot better unless it's something that really will be all afternoon. Looking at the logical end points when people need to get off and do other thing can help a lot: if most people have lunch with family, for example, picking a time when they'll go off to lunch after is going to work better.

3) The structure -

It sounds like you've got really different ideas of how deeply you want to go than at least some members. This is not an uncommon problem in more general groups. One thing that might work is to have a smaller subgroup who's either interested in going deeper on a specific topic (for example, getting together separately to discuss divination, say) *or* doing things that accomodate both kinds of interests.

For example, maybe the people who want to go deeper show up at 11, ready to discuss. Everyone else is welcome to show up at 12, and to have a more general discussion and social time over lunch. Everyone expects to head out to do other things around 1 or so. This is something that depends a bit on your available space (you don't want people coming for the second half to disrupt your discussion).

You do have a golden opportunity with a change in leadership (even though that's not you.) It's a great time to see what people in the group want as a focus, and how to do things that meet at least some of the needs.
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« Reply #6: June 23, 2009, 02:14:11 am »

Circles have become more of a social gathering, than a spiritual one... I really want to be like " Let me handle the group agian because I think I did a better job". But I don't want to come off as rude or controlling...  Opinions? thoughts?

I'm not currently in any kind of group, and haven't been for quite a long time, but I'm going to chime in anyway, because MAN OH MAN, is this EVER an issue close to my heart!! Because this is, in fact, the biggest reason WHY I haven't been in any kind of group for quite a long time.

I share your frustration. One of my most compelling memories of pagan fellowship is of the "coven" I once belonged to. Its major activity was sitting around chatting and leafing through candle catalogs. It very occasionally attempted, hesitantly, some sort of eclectic improvised ritual (a grand total of twice, I believe), yet somehow decided that its mission would be to plan and run public ritual (which happened a grand total of once). I was a newcomer to the Pagan community, but I had other types of relevant experience, with drumming and ritual theater and initiatory work, and I got more and more frustrated as I realized what a horrific gap there was between my expectations and theirs. I started poking and prodding and pushing, trying to get across what I felt (and still do feel) to be a much deeper and stronger and more valuable vision of what such a group could be. But - valuable to whom? Mostly I think I just created discomfort. My pushiness did spawn a couple of attempts at what I considered real work, but overall the group and I were just not a good fit for each other, and I'd have caused less frustration to both myself and my comrades if I'd just admitted that. I may have done some good, but I also did harm, not least to myself. I destroyed my own joy in the work, and it's been taking me a long time to find it again.

So, one thing that I've had to learn the hard way is that - as a couple of previous posters mentioned, and my experience definitely bears out - there really are a whole spectrum of different types and levels of expectations for what any particular kind of group "should" be doing. What seems incredibly basic and obvious and necessary to one person is foreign and unappealing to another, and the more eclectic the membership, the more varied the expectations. You have to face the possibility - I'd even say, the strong probability - that if this is the way meetings have been going for some time, then most of the folks who keep coming may in fact be perfectly satisfied with the status quo - their needs and expectations are filled by this very loose, predominantly social circle. It's very, very tempting to think that if only they had the chance to experience a different sort of group, they'd like it better... but as the song says, that ain't necessarily so.

But if there are at least a few others who want something closer to what you want, maybe there's a way to create it, either within the larger group or as a spin-off. You could speak to the person running the group and say you'd like to make a proposal. Explain that while you have enjoyed the group as it is (yeah, I know, it's called diplomacy, I think *sigh*), you would really like to do more, and are wondering if anyone would be interested in giving it a try. Perhaps you could come up with a well-worked-out plan (discussions, study topics, book list, whatever) for the kind of thing you'd like to do, and suggest trying it out either (1.) for the whole group, for some finite period of time - say, a month's trial - or (2.) for a smaller group-within-the-group, taking up maybe half of the scheduled time, as an ongoing project?

~Val~*
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« Reply #7: June 23, 2009, 10:02:06 am »



So, one thing that I've had to learn the hard way is that - as a couple of previous posters mentioned, and my experience definitely bears out - there really are a whole spectrum of different types and levels of expectations for what any particular kind of group "should" be doing. What seems incredibly basic and obvious and necessary to one person is foreign and unappealing to another, and the more eclectic the membership, the more varied the expectations. You have to face the possibility - I'd even say, the strong probability - that if this is the way meetings have been going for some time, then most of the folks who keep coming may in fact be perfectly satisfied with the status quo - their needs and expectations are filled by this very loose, predominantly social circle. It's very, very tempting to think that if only they had the chance to experience a different sort of group, they'd like it better... but as the song says, that ain't necessarily so.

But if there are at least a few others who want something closer to what you want, maybe there's a way to create it, either within the larger group or as a spin-off.
~Val~*

The way this developed in my coven is that within the community of Sharanya there are some people who are experienced Craft practitioners, and some not so much or not at all-we are all there to study tantra and worship Maa, but we don't all have the same needs from the practice. Some of us found that some of the events that are totally open to community to be not enough, or not enough in line with what we were wanting to do magically, even if it was exactly what we were wanting to do spiritually. So those people that wanted more naturally gravitated towards eachother through the venue of the community-wide events. It was a little weird at first, b/c we did not realize for a while that we were using the community events for our own purposes, so when someone who was not part of that showed up our plans would have to change to accomodate the community member who just wanted to do meditation. But as soon as we became aware of that, we started our own thing. The tricky part, of course, is to not make it exclusionary, b/c it *is a community-based body. But I think the way to avoid that is to be honest about what your are doing and what you want, and then people who want that too will know they are welcome while people who aren't into it will not feel excluded.
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« Reply #8: June 23, 2009, 11:48:08 am »

I want to go to circle get my spiritual fill in the hour, hour and a half and go on with my day. I don't think this is unrealistic. Opinions? thoughts? Hpw does your circle/coven run things?? Thanks!

What do you mean by "spiritual fill"?
If thats all you want, pick a church that manages to raise Power and do that once a week.  Some are quite good at it.  Beware the priests, (pastors, ministers, or whatever) they know about power too and may attempt to steal or redirect yours.  (thats why the pulpit is in front and not in the center.) 
     Sacrament and ritual are designed to do just that without regard to the particular philosophy.   The elements of it may vary depending on the mindset of the participants, but the purpose is the same. 
     OTOH, an hour of "meditation", especially in the right setting using breathing techniques can work well enough. 

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« Reply #9: June 23, 2009, 12:02:35 pm »

Beware the priests, (pastors, ministers, or whatever) they know about power too and may attempt to steal or redirect yours.  (thats why the pulpit is in front and not in the center.) 

Sorry, not following you here, on a number of levels.

1.  The altar seems a more logical focus of power to me, and in the churches I've been in is usually more the focus of the worship ceremony than the pulpit (though I'll admit that my experience is mostly with Catholic-lite denominations and this may not apply to mainline Protestant denominations).

2.  There's a purely practical reason for the pulpit to be in front:  So that everyone can see the minister when he's speaking to them.  I don't see a need to assume an energetic reason for it when there's a perfectly good practical reason available.  As for the altar, if we're talking power centers, it's not always in front.  I'll grant that's the more usual configuration, yes, but the church I grew up in put its altar in the center of the sanctuary with seating arranged in a circle around it.

3.  At the risk of implicating said church, which I still think is a great church even if I no longer follow their religion, I'd think that the logical position for someone trying to "steal" power would be in the midst of the power they're trying to collect.  So I'm not sure why the ministers allegedly wanting to take the power for themselves (a claim about which I'm also skeptical) would lead to the pulpit's placement at the front of the sanctuary.

I'm not going to argue that there's a lot of energy to be found at Christian church services; I've felt that to be so myself.  I'm not sure I'd advocate horning in on another religion's worship just for the power source (it seems awfully rude, both to the congregation and to my gods), but I won't deny that it's there.  I'm just a little confused by some of the other claims you're making here.
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« Reply #10: June 23, 2009, 12:30:18 pm »

What do you mean by "spiritual fill"?
If thats all you want, pick a church that manages to raise Power and do that once a week.  Some are quite good at it.  Beware the priests, (pastors, ministers, or whatever) they know about power too and may attempt to steal or redirect yours.  (thats why the pulpit is in front and not in the center.) 
     Sacrament and ritual are designed to do just that without regard to the particular philosophy.   The elements of it may vary depending on the mindset of the participants, but the purpose is the same. 
     OTOH, an hour of "meditation", especially in the right setting using breathing techniques can work well enough. 

Your fiend,
Ogre

 

I tend to agree with Star on this.  I would feel dishonest going to a christian church just for the energy (though if I were to go for a wedding, baptism ect. I would enjoy and respect the energy around me).  I'm not the OP, but from what I gathered, she's looking for like minded people practice her spirituality with.

The purpose of churches is to practice a specific religion and the pastor, priests, etc. are definitely preaching those beliefs in their sermons.  I would expect to be welcomed into a church, but I would not expect my beliefs to be welcomed. 
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« Reply #11: June 23, 2009, 12:54:10 pm »

What do you mean by "spiritual fill"?
If thats all you want, pick a church that manages to raise Power and do that once a week.  Some are quite good at it.  Beware the priests, (pastors, ministers, or whatever) they know about power too and may attempt to steal or redirect yours.  (thats why the pulpit is in front and not in the center.) 
     Sacrament and ritual are designed to do just that without regard to the particular philosophy.   The elements of it may vary depending on the mindset of the participants, but the purpose is the same. 
     OTOH, an hour of "meditation", especially in the right setting using breathing techniques can work well enough. 

Your fiend,
Ogre

 
   I'm Wiccan. I don't do christian churches.
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« Reply #12: June 23, 2009, 01:49:30 pm »



I understand where you're coming from.  I've belonged to a few public pagan groups that had started out ineresting enough but as time grew on it was just a social gathering.  Which was nice in its own sort of way but when your looking for spiritual from a gathering that had an intent on being spiritual it does get frusterating.

My coven that I am in and helped start focuses more on ritual and class work.  We get together every two weeks for class (we are all in various stages of our path) then we get together every full moon for ritual and we try to get together for the sabbaths and at least do something fun (if we're not holding a ritual) because we all have families so normally we do family activities
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« Reply #13: June 29, 2009, 04:48:59 pm »

Opinions? thoughts? Hpw does your circle/coven run things?? Thanks!

Merry Meet!  I thought I'd share a little of what OldeForest does with you and give you some suggestions on organizing an open group.  I will echo what has already been said and note that you need to speak up and express your desires and also find out what the desires of others in the group might be.  It is vital that, if you want to accomplish anything, you set an aim for the group.  An arrow will not hit the mark if not aimed and the bow drawn to put the power behind it.  If you want to see real accomplishment, you will need to define your vision and map out a plan for how to get there.

If I understand you properly, this group is a fairly informal circle.  It doesn't sound like a coven, no dedicated HPS or HP.  That in and of itself changes how it will function.  I suggest you look up the "club model" -- one person, one voice, one vote -- and see if you can encourage the group to organize enough to set goals.  Not being a coven (which focuses on building intimate relationships for the purpose of deep spiritual growth and working magick, among other things), be sure you aren't biting off more than you can chew.  You want to start small (maybe with a schedule) and then once that's accomplished, add something else.

Here are some ideas of things you might incorporate for your group:

1.  Book Club Nights -- everyone pick the same book to read and come together to discuss.  Take turns leading the discussion/suggesting the book.  Try and keep it on central topics that would interest everyone.

2.  Sabbat Observances -- have rituals/feasts/celebrations of the Sabbat festivals.  Take turns planning and doing the rituals/feasts.  BE SURE TO ASSIGN A POTLUCK COORDINATOR!!  It's a lifesaver.

3.  Guest Speakers -- contact local pagans not in your group and ask them to guest speak and teach a class on a topic.  Be sure to advertise this so you get good turnout.

4.  Plan and organize a local Pagan Pride Day or other awareness event -- look online to get in touch with the central body of PPD or plan something of your own under a different name.  Work together to bring awareness of your path to your community.

5.  Decide on a quarterly Service Project -- find nature centers, rivers that need trash pick up, local food banks or soup kitchens, community gardens, homeless shelters, Habitat for Humanity groups, etc. in your area.  Agree to take on one service project per quarter to give back to your community.

6.  Publish a mini-newsletter where all members can contribute -- this can help others of like mind know you're there and give everyone a voice to express their beliefs/thoughts without taking up valuable meeting time.

7.  Organize enough to the point of taking volunteers for officers -- suggested officers would be:  President (makes sure things get started on time, general cat-herder); PotLuck Planner (obvious); Communications Officer (handles sensitive contact information, moderating an e-group if you have one, getting the word out about upcoming events, sending out reminders); Treasurer (collecting and keeping track of dues/donations/funds... I heartily suggest a dues-based model as it takes money to get things done and one of the biggest causes of leadership burnout in the Craft is the leadership paying for everything).  You might get to the point of adding an Archivist to do scrapbooking of your events or a Librarian to catalogue who owns what book and hook folks up with information.  Depends on how far you want to go with this.

8.  Field Trips -- find local sacred sites, interesting natural destinations, and other things interesting to pagans.  Plan field trips to these.  For example, OldeForest (my group) last year went to the replica of the Parthenon in Nashville, and this year, we are going to Cherokee, NC to learn about native culture in our area.  We also went to Elkmont in the Smoky Mountains this year to watch the firefly mating season and camped together.  Find things that get you out of the rut of going to a building and listening to each other talk.  :-)

9.  Practical Classes -- Find topics you enjoy and volunteer to learn and present a class on the topic.  Try and include a multi-layered approach with the class:  give folks a handout about candle magick, talk about it, break up into small groups and have each group pick a situation for using candle magick and write a spell together then present it to the rest of the group, actually teach people how to go through the annointing process, end class with a group candle ritual for religious tolerance.  When you do more than lecture, the classes are more memorable and more fun.


Since you aren't a coven, be very, VERY careful about letting personal drama spill into the group where the leadership has to deal with it.  If people have psychological issues, refer them to qualified therapists on base.  If people stir up drama, remind them that the group is not a stage for interpersonal problems but a meeting place to accomplish the goals you've set out.  If the whole "leadership" thing becomes a power issue, I suggest building a rotational leadership pattern into your structure, perhaps switching out every six months.  This will also save folks from burning out.  You might have a "President" and "Vice President" with the assumption that the Vice moves into the President position for the next term so you always have someone apprenticing to be a leader.

As the seminal founder of a couple of non-profit orgs as well as HPS of a coven, not having structure is going to impact your ability to do anything effectively, and that includes meeting your needs and growing the organization.  Be warned:  a lot of pagans really do not like structure, most of us having an anarchist streak at least a *little* wide within us.  Encourage the members in the group to see that Nature is SUPREMELY organized and thus efficient and balanced.  Encourage them to model Nature and set their own "natural laws and boundaries" in order to create what they wish the group to become.

I hope this helps a bit.  If you have any other questions, feel free to email me and I'll be glad to help where I can.  I think it's wonderful that you have this opportunity.  It shows how far our faith has come.  Take advantage of it and use it well, always remembering that you are setting an example to the world for who we are and what we are about.  It is both a great honor and great responsibility!


Blessings and best wishes,
~Sitara

http://www.sitarahaye.com
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Sitara Haye is a Craft author and High Priestess with over 20 years Craft experience and training.  To learn more, please visit and subscribe to her website:   *Link Removed*  .
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« Reply #14: July 06, 2009, 10:06:33 pm »

Sorry, not following you here, on a number of levels.

1.  The altar seems a more logical focus of power to me, and in the churches I've been in is usually more the focus of the worship ceremony than the pulpit (though I'll admit that my experience is mostly with Catholic-lite denominations and this may not apply to mainline Protestant denominations).


Sorry i'm so long responding. 
In most places the pulpit is either in front of, or next to the altar.  The Priest is near the center of focus.

2.  There's a purely practical reason for the pulpit to be in front:  So that everyone can see the minister when he's speaking to them.  I don't see a need to assume an energetic reason for it when there's a perfectly good practical reason available. 


Yup!  And I am sure that some that take on the cowl do so in a true spirit of service.  Yet, if you analyze the monastic lifestyle by comparing it to the training of a sorcerer (or witch) you may notice that the training techniques and the end result is much the same.  That is... hightened perception ie. an "awareness"   


As f
or the altar, if we're talking power centers, it's not always in front.  I'll grant that's the more usual configuration, yes, but the church I grew up in put its altar in the center of the sanctuary with seating arranged in a circle around it.

You grew up in Rhode Island?  And where was the Priest? 
3.  At the risk of implicating said church, which I still think is a great church even if I no longer follow their religion, I'd think that the logical position for someone trying to "steal" power would be in the midst of the power they're trying to collect.  So I'm not sure why the ministers allegedly wanting to take the power for themselves (a claim about which I'm also skeptical) would lead to the pulpit's placement at the front of the sanctuary.

OK.  Lets just say at its focus.
 
I'm not going to argue that there's a lot of energy to be found at Christian church services; I've felt that to be so myself.  I'm not sure I'd advocate horning in on another religion's worship just for the power source (it seems awfully rude, both to the congregation and to my gods), but I won't deny that it's there.  I'm just a little confused by some of the other claims you're making here.

That was sort of my point.  If thats all you want... a fill up till next week... Its easy enough to get. 
As far as "stealing power" goes, I've only encountered it personally with a "pastor" once.  At least as an obvious attempt, with a very surprised reaction when he realized he had tried this with the wrong person.  OTOH he officated at a ritual the next day where I have never before in my life "seen" that much power in one place.  Go figure...

Your Fiend
Ogre

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