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Author Topic: Pope Criticizes Paganism in Encyclical on Love & Charity  (Read 10233 times)
Waldfrau
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« Reply #30: July 14, 2009, 03:32:17 am »

I remember somewhere that a theologian called both the turning the other cheek, giving the shirt as well as the coat, and walking a second mile, were actually methods of civil disobedience.
They are if you use those methods in the right circumstances, but there's a thin line between turning the other cheek as method of civil disobedience and repressive tolerance. Then if I'm not completly mistaken, civil disobedience doesn't mean to keep quiet, but means to critizise something with nonviolent argument and action, not doing nothing waiting for things to improve out of mood swings.

I think there's enough reason to critizise the current Pope in a sensible manner. It doesn't help to overblow it and to see the 'burning times' in every statement, but it doesn't help to keep completly quiet either.
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« Reply #31: July 14, 2009, 08:31:10 am »

They are if you use those methods in the right circumstances, but there's a thin line between turning the other cheek as method of civil disobedience and repressive tolerance. Then if I'm not completly mistaken, civil disobedience doesn't mean to keep quiet, but means to critizise something with nonviolent argument and action, not doing nothing waiting for things to improve out of mood swings.

I think there's enough reason to critizise the current Pope in a sensible manner. It doesn't help to overblow it and to see the 'burning times' in every statement, but it doesn't help to keep completly quiet either.

I can't find it now, but somehow, like the other two, turning the other cheek makes the guy hitting you the bad guy and very obviously the bad guy to everyone around.

Dang I have to go find that now. 
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Waldfrau
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« Reply #32: July 14, 2009, 10:07:04 am »

I can't find it now, but somehow, like the other two, turning the other cheek makes the guy hitting you the bad guy and very obviously the bad guy to everyone around.
I know, but that depends much on the ethics of the people around you.

I also have an issue with this comparison. Critizising the Pope in a civil and reasonable manner isn't violence and I don't think it's stupid to point out what you find wrong even if it's for the 100th time. I do however find it contraproductive to blow critic out of proportions or to adress a minor subject.

I just think some stuff in this thread was lumped together too much and wanted to say that I find adequate critic better than silence (not saying the Wild Hunt article was adequate). Civil disobedience isn't the same as keeping your mouth shut IMO, although you could argue that keeping your mouth shut is better than screaming 'burning times'.
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« Reply #33: July 14, 2009, 10:13:53 am »

I know, but that depends much on the ethics of the people around you.

I also have an issue with this comparison. Critizising the Pope in a civil and reasonable manner isn't violence and I don't think it's stupid to point out what you find wrong even if it's for the 100th time. I do however find it contraproductive to blow critic out of proportions or to adress a minor subject.

I just think some stuff in this thread was lumped together too much and wanted to say that I find adequate critic better than silence (not saying the Wild Hunt article was adequate). Civil disobedience isn't the same as keeping your mouth shut IMO, although you could argue that keeping your mouth shut is better than screaming 'burning times'.

My issue with this is that there are FAR more productive times and places TO say something.  Not to say you can't say something here .. but .. I try to avoid pissing in the wind, y'know?  And that's what this feels like.
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« Reply #34: July 14, 2009, 12:34:20 pm »

I know, but that depends much on the ethics of the people around you.



well, it was supposed to be in the ethics of the time.  You have to read the gospels in that light, what were the ethics of the times, otherwise things don't necessarily make sense.  And supposedly, according to the guy that I can't find now, in the ethics of the times, all three were forms of civil disobedience in that they took something a roman, creditor, master had a right to do, gave them more than that and thus set them outside the laws and ethics around them, making them the bad guys.

 
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« Reply #35: July 14, 2009, 04:42:11 pm »

...in other news, it turns out that ice is, in fact, cold.

 Grin Grin Grin
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« Reply #36: July 14, 2009, 05:19:00 pm »

I wasn't commenting on whether or not you agreed with the philosophy. It simply occured to me that turnign the other cheek isn't physical a self-defence strategy, it's a spiritual one and I don't think that it concerns itself with whether or not the individual doing the slapping stops or not. BTW, it isn't my intention to defend the pilosophy per se, it's just first thing in the morning for me and the irony of your original comment jumped out at my caffeine-starved brain.

My apologies, sometimes when in more shall we say contentious discussions I tend to be a bit keyed up  Kiss.

Like I said earlier, depends on the situation.  If civil disobedience will work then use that, but if it takes something a little sterner and more direct use that.  Every tool for its own purpose, just have to be ready to use what you have as needed and to its fullest possible extent.
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« Reply #37: July 14, 2009, 06:06:35 pm »

My apologies, sometimes when in more shall we say contentious discussions I tend to be a bit keyed up  Kiss.

Like I said earlier, depends on the situation.  If civil disobedience will work then use that, but if it takes something a little sterner and more direct use that.  Every tool for its own purpose, just have to be ready to use what you have as needed and to its fullest possible extent.

No problem, although I still think that as soon as someone says 'oh and if it doesn't work do something else' you miss the point of the teaching, which I do not believe is to prevent the current instance of undesirable behaviour (although it may well be to reduce future instances). YMMV.
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« Reply #38: July 14, 2009, 07:46:20 pm »

No problem, although I still think that as soon as someone says 'oh and if it doesn't work do something else' you miss the point of the teaching, which I do not believe is to prevent the current instance of undesirable behaviour (although it may well be to reduce future instances). YMMV.

As I see it better to be flexible and adaptive to changing circumstances.  Paraphrasing Sun Tzu loosely what gets you victory in one situation will get you victory in that situation, every circumstances has its own conditions and obstacles that must be addressed dependent on the challenge faced not on what has worked in the past.
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« Reply #39: July 14, 2009, 07:53:48 pm »

As I see it better to be flexible and adaptive to changing circumstances.  Paraphrasing Sun Tzu loosely what gets you victory in one situation will get you victory in that situation, every circumstances has its own conditions and obstacles that must be addressed dependent on the challenge faced not on what has worked in the past.

I'd have to say that I side with you on this one, but then again - I'm not Jesus Smiley
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« Reply #40: July 14, 2009, 08:15:28 pm »

I'd have to say that I side with you on this one, but then again - I'm not Jesus Smiley

You aren't!?!?!?!?  What about all those water bottles you turned into that Bordeaux for me?
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« Reply #41: July 14, 2009, 08:20:34 pm »

You aren't!?!?!?!?  What about all those water bottles you turned into that Bordeaux for me?

You promissed you wouldn't tell! Now I'll have to pay tax on them Sad
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Waldfrau
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« Reply #42: July 15, 2009, 05:49:15 am »

My issue with this is that there are FAR more productive times and places TO say something.  Not to say you can't say something here .. but .. I try to avoid pissing in the wind, y'know?  And that's what this feels like.
I completly get your point. I'm not saying it isn't a waste of energy to critize every fart of the Pope. I just have an issue with calling the lack of critic 'civil disobedience', because it isn't.
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Waldfrau
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« Reply #43: July 15, 2009, 05:53:46 am »

well, it was supposed to be in the ethics of the time.  You have to read the gospels in that light, what were the ethics of the times, otherwise things don't necessarily make sense.  And supposedly, according to the guy that I can't find now, in the ethics of the times, all three were forms of civil disobedience in that they took something a roman, creditor, master had a right to do, gave them more than that and thus set them outside the laws and ethics around them, making them the bad guys.
Mandrina, I understand your examples, I just don't see how they fit the subject of critic of the Pope. If you don't critizise the Pope in a certain way because you see it as a helpless case and a waste of energy, okay, but I wouldn't call it civil disobedience.
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« Reply #44: July 15, 2009, 08:29:55 am »

Mandrina, I understand your examples, I just don't see how they fit the subject of critic of the Pope. If you don't critizise the Pope in a certain way because you see it as a helpless case and a waste of energy, okay, but I wouldn't call it civil disobedience.

I was working off the tangent.  You know, thread drift.  If you follow them back you get to people talking about turning the other cheek.
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