norse circle casting vs wiccan circle casting

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[RyanCSmith]

I see a lot of people have put down the book this guy was reading, is there a list or do you have recommendations for the books that he should be reading?(on Norse related stuff) I am quite interested in this. Any articles or writers that can be counted upon for accurate information?

If you want GOOD Heathen authors as mentioned Our Troth is the best place to start.  Paxson is good, Edred Thorson puts out some good stuff, Freya Aswyn is also a good one to look at.  For a more Folkish perspective you could take a look at Steve MacNallan.

That and as a big one for ANYONE wanting to study Asatru and Norse stuff:

Get a copy of the Poetic and Prose Eddas.  Without those some of the references will not make sense and are necessary really for a good foundation.

[Randulfr]

Get a copy of the Poetic and Prose Eddas.  Without those some of the references will not make sense and are necessary really for a good foundation.

I agree with Ryan.  As well, the Larrington translation of the Poetic Edda is, in my opinion, easier to read than the Hollander translation.  Norse Myths by Kevin Crossley-Holland is another good choice.

In frith

[RandallS]

I see a lot of people have put down the book this guy was reading, is there a list or do you have recommendations for the books that he should be reading?(on Norse related stuff) I am quite interested in this. Any articles or writers that can be counted upon for accurate information?

You might want to look at some of the books and sites listed on our "Norse" recon page.

[bobthesane]

I see a lot of people have put down the book this guy was reading, is there a list or do you have recommendations for the books that he should be reading?(on Norse related stuff) I am quite interested in this. Any articles or writers that can be counted upon for accurate information?

Oh geez.... You have opened the proverbial can o' worms. We don't call our faith 'The religion with homework' for nothin'.

But where to start. Let's see, to paraphrase a well known movie: Use the Source, Luke. That being, get as close to the source material as possible. In this case, start with your Eddas (both the younger Eddas by Snorri Sturleson and things like the Codex Regis). I would highly advise reading the sagas, not for the heathen content but for the *cultural* content, because cultural placement is of vital importance to us. Penguin press has a fantastic compendium of the Icelandic Sagas that I recommend to anyone who wishes a good place to start reading (called, oddly enough, the Sagas of Icelanders ).

If you are of a masochistic nature, then you can try to slog your way through the writings of Saxo Grammaticus and his plodding torment, The Danes.

Reading early Thorsson (ie. Stephen Flowers) is not a bad place to start either, if for nothing else than to follow up with his sources.

I also highly recommend H.R. Ellis Davidson's fantastic scholarly works 'Gods and Myths'. While not heathen, it does provide unbelievably good insight into not just how, but WHY our ancestors (and by extension, people like myself) held the beliefs they did and why their faith expressed itself in the ways that it did.

[RyanCSmith]

Oh geez.... You have opened the proverbial can o' worms. We don't call our faith 'The religion with homework' for nothin'.

But where to start. Let's see, to paraphrase a well known movie: Use the Source, Luke. That being, get as close to the source material as possible. In this case, start with your Eddas (both the younger Eddas by Snorri Sturleson and things like the Codex Regis). I would highly advise reading the sagas, not for the heathen content but for the *cultural* content, because cultural placement is of vital importance to us. Penguin press has a fantastic compendium of the Icelandic Sagas that I recommend to anyone who wishes a good place to start reading (called, oddly enough, the Sagas of Icelanders ).

If you are of a masochistic nature, then you can try to slog your way through the writings of Saxo Grammaticus and his plodding torment, The Danes.

Reading early Thorsson (ie. Stephen Flowers) is not a bad place to start either, if for nothing else than to follow up with his sources.

I also highly recommend H.R. Ellis Davidson's fantastic scholarly works 'Gods and Myths'. While not heathen, it does provide unbelievably good insight into not just how, but WHY our ancestors (and by extension, people like myself) held the beliefs they did and why their faith expressed itself in the ways that it did.

I would also recommend getting a solid grounding in the history of Germany, England, and Scandinavia from Teutoburg Wald to Hastings.  That period is the one we have the most written sources about Germanic society and is vital for establishing the context of all the above texts.

[Noituudenaika]

I would also recommend getting a solid grounding in the history of Germany, England, and Scandinavia from Teutoburg Wald to Hastings.  That period is the one we have the most written sources about Germanic society and is vital for establishing the context of all the above texts.

Thank you for all your replies, I will look into all the writings listed. I am happy to do homework but a little help to get started in the right place is always appreciated.

[Waldfrau]

We are oathbound at that initiation not to reveal the heart's-blood of our faith except to others similarly initiated.  That includes the Names of Those we serve.

I know I've asked you about this issue before, but there's something else I haven't thought of. Does that mean that all BTW-covens serve the Gods of the Wica as their primary deities? Or might some covens serve other deities as primary while they also serve the Gods of the Wica to some extend? (Maybe there's a difference between big celebrations like Samhain and Beltane and others?)

[Sine Silvering]

I know I've asked you about this issue before, but there's something else I haven't thought of. Does that mean that all BTW-covens serve the Gods of the Wica as their primary deities? Or might some covens serve other deities as primary while they also serve the Gods of the Wica to some extend? (Maybe there's a difference between big celebrations like Samhain and Beltane and others?)

I can't speak for others, but consider my situation: I am oathbound to the Gods of the Wica and have been for over 20 years.  In the last four years, I've struck up a relationship of a lesser kind with Thor.  No oaths between us; I greet him when he comes to mind; I buy him beer.  When I use a hammer I salute him with it first.  He keeps the weather around here under some control for me --like asking the rain to hold off a few minutes while I get the groceries unloaded; little things like that.  I would never ask him for much; I don't believe people should mess with the weather:  we can't see the consequences far enough ahead.  I tried that once; it wasn't pretty.

It is my belief that no HPS or HP would offer to initiate anyone who was already oathed elsewhere, lest the oaths conflict.  It is something that is discussed while a candidate is being considered. 

There are people who belong to more than one chapter of the British Traditional Wicca; the most common couple around here are folks who carry both Gardnerian and Alexandrian initiations, but I'm sure there are others, and other combinations. We have no Mohsians or CV folk out here, so the opportunity to guest is not there.  I know a gentleman who is an elder in a Gard coven, and HP in a Celtic one.  We rarely see him at Gard events because he has responsibilities elsewhere.  I know of a learned lady who is Gard/Alex/Druid and ran an eclectic coven herself for many years.  So I would never say any particular arrangement is impossible.

[Waldfrau]

It is my belief that no HPS or HP would offer to initiate anyone who was already oathed elsewhere, lest the oaths conflict.  It is something that is discussed while a candidate is being considered.

Thanks, this I've never heard before. Good to learn something new.

So you couldn't dedicate yourself formally to Thor? Or would it be possible under thorough considerations to see that the oath doesn't conflict with your oath to the Gods of the Wica? (In case you wanted to, I'm just asking hypothetically.) Sorry for my curiousity.

[Waldfrau]

I attended a ceremony with one group who did that. They drew Zeus out of the "God Hat" and Kali out of the "Goddess Hat."

Wasn't it an interesting fight?    (Maybe I'm somewhat misinformed by Homerian stuff, but at the moment I have pictures in my head about womanizing Zeus trying to win Kali...um....)

[Waldfrau]

*snerk* I'm never sure whether to laugh or cry whenever I hear someone say that they're Wiccan and they "use Artemis and Apollo for their god and goddess"....

Not trying to defend them. But maybe you could have a ritual with both of them in a more general way of male/female polarity, just without the Wiccan aspect of love between the deities... 

[SunflowerP]

I know I've asked you about this issue before, but there's something else I haven't thought of. Does that mean that all BTW-covens serve the Gods of the Wica as their primary deities? Or might some covens serve other deities as primary while they also serve the Gods of the Wica to some extend? (Maybe there's a difference between big celebrations like Samhain and Beltane and others?)

I interpreted what you were asking a bit differently than Sine did, so I'll toss in my two cents:  yes, all BTW covens are of the Wica, and serve the Gods of the Wica.  From what I've heard, that wouldn't necessarily be a barrier to honoring other deities, but a coven for which other deities were primary wouldn't be practicing BTW, even if every member was a BTW initiate.

This can get a bit confusing, since BTW is orthopraxic, and doesn't have a set doctrine on the nature/interpretation of its Gods; individual BTW may have differing views - and there are still some who see the Gods of the Wica in a more universal way, and might consider those "other" deities to not be "other" but aspects of their Lady and Lord.  (This used to be, if not more common, then more commonly presented; these days, the majority of BTW, at least of those I have contact with, hold a duotheistic-henotheist view much more like Sine's.)

I am not BTW, so if I've misrepresented any of this, hopefully Sine will set me straight.

Sunflower

[Waldfrau]

Thanks, Sunflower, that makes sense at least to my ears.

Maybe there are a number of people who are initiated in BTW, but develop a practice after years which is slightly different from the original?


I've been talking to some German BTWs in a German forum and I'm quite confused because some of them seem to be more soft polytheist/duotheist then duotheist-henotheist. So I wondered if it's an issue of different countries as well.

So my guess would be that the theological views vary generally to some extend, though there might be different majorities in different countries.

[SunflowerP]

I've been talking to some German BTWs in a German forum and I'm quite confused because some of them seem to be more soft polytheist/duotheist then duotheist-henotheist. So I wondered if it's an issue of different countries as well.

So my guess would be that the theological views vary generally to some extend, though there might be different majorities in different countries.

I'd been going to add, but forgot, that the differences in detail of how the neoPagan movement developed in different countries/regions would have an effect.  I'm not surprised to hear that BTW in Germany leans more soft-polytheist, since BTW (particularly Alexandrian) spread there quite early, when the soft-poly stance was more widespread.

Oop, gotta go - I had bits I might add but they'll have to wait.

Sunflower

[AnhagaDaegal]

Well, I am a Heathen/Witch and I do not follow Asatru or Heathenry alone, nor do I practice Wicca. I practice witchcraft as a Craft (meaning I rely on myself for magickal purpose and very rarely turn to a Deity of any sorts within the Anglo-Saxon/Germanic/Celtic pantheons) and follow the "thews" (can't figure out how to do the "th" in Anglo-Saxon/German yet) meaning "virtues" as seen by those who follow Asatru.

Casting a Circle is not something I practice, nor would I entertain the thought of calling Deities to do "biddings" or what have you.  Messing with an entity or Deity, higher than yourself (let alone without the appropriate and necessary knowledge and experience to do so) in any form that is insulting or offensive, is setting yourself up for trouble. Thus, I would steer clear of doing such.

Also, the thought of Freyja and Freyr in a Wiccan-influenced/oriented/based ritual would give me the creeps. Just my opinion.

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