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Author Topic: Witch Bottles  (Read 6742 times)
Mithril
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« Topic Start: May 04, 2007, 07:35:47 pm »

I was reading the article on witch bottles and found it very interesting. I have a few comments and questions, though. It says that these bottles often contain bodily fluids to represent you, such as blood and urine. I don't really understand what real affect these substances can have because they aren't really specific to you. Blood can be transfused between people (of the same type) easily, and urine... I don't know exactly what urine is composed of, but I don't think each person's urine is unique. Wouldn't it be more effective to put in a bit of yourself with DNA?
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« Reply #1: May 04, 2007, 07:45:06 pm »

Blood can be transfused between people (of the same type) easily, and urine... I don't know exactly what urine is composed of, but I don't think each person's urine is unique. Wouldn't it be more effective to put in a bit of yourself with DNA?

Doesn't most bodily fluid already have DNA in it?
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« Reply #2: May 04, 2007, 07:50:50 pm »

I was reading the article on witch bottles and found it very interesting. I have a few comments and questions, though. It says that these bottles often contain bodily fluids to represent you, such as blood and urine. I don't really understand what real affect these substances can have because they aren't really specific to you. Blood can be transfused between people (of the same type) easily, and urine... I don't know exactly what urine is composed of, but I don't think each person's urine is unique. Wouldn't it be more effective to put in a bit of yourself with DNA?

One thought that comes to mind is that witch bottles, (allegedly since I'm no historian) have been around since long before people knew what DNA was... so presumably, based on what they knew of biology they would be assuming that each person's urine and blood would be unique to that person.
Am I making sense?
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« Reply #3: May 04, 2007, 07:59:02 pm »

I was reading the article on witch bottles and found it very interesting. I have a few comments and questions, though. It says that these bottles often contain bodily fluids to represent you, such as blood and urine. I don't really understand what real affect these substances can have because they aren't really specific to you. Blood can be transfused between people (of the same type) easily, and urine... I don't know exactly what urine is composed of, but I don't think each person's urine is unique. Wouldn't it be more effective to put in a bit of yourself with DNA?

It's a very specific form of disrespect.  I piss on you.  My very blood supports my desire.  I offer you nothing but fecundity.  *I* dump offal and fecundity upon you. 

I use my personal fluids to imbue this bottle with my exact feelings towards you, since they will represent my will far beyond the voice that I speak my words with carries.

I guess part of the question is whether you feel like the bottle does the magic, or your will.  If you feel it is the bottle, then the contents matter.  "blood" any blood may hold equal value. 

If you feel it is your will, then all that matters is how pissing on your target would make you feel to raise and direct the correct energy.
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« Reply #4: May 04, 2007, 08:32:15 pm »

Doesn't most bodily fluid already have DNA in it?

Definately not blood, and most probably not urine, which were two of the examples given and the ones most easily available to females.

One thought that comes to mind is that witch bottles, (allegedly since I'm no historian) have been around since long before people knew what DNA was... so presumably, based on what they knew of biology they would be assuming that each person's urine and blood would be unique to that person.
Am I making sense?
Yes, but now that we *do* know, wouldn't it be more affective?

It's a very specific form of disrespect.  I piss on you.  My very blood supports my desire.  I offer you nothing but fecundity.  *I* dump offal and fecundity upon you. 

I use my personal fluids to imbue this bottle with my exact feelings towards you, since they will represent my will far beyond the voice that I speak my words with carries.

I guess part of the question is whether you feel like the bottle does the magic, or your will.  If you feel it is the bottle, then the contents matter.  "blood" any blood may hold equal value. 

If you feel it is your will, then all that matters is how pissing on your target would make you feel to raise and direct the correct energy.


But, if I understood the article correctly, there are different versions of the bottle. One that mirrors the evil and reflects it to the sender, another that absorbs it (which is the version I'm going for), and another that transforms the evil into good.
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« Reply #5: May 04, 2007, 08:41:53 pm »

Definately not blood, and most probably not urine, which were two of the examples given and the ones most easily available to females.

If blood didn't hold DNA, why would people use blood for DNA tests?  That doesn't make any sense.
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« Reply #6: May 04, 2007, 08:45:22 pm »

If blood didn't hold DNA, why would people use blood for DNA tests?  That doesn't make any sense.

If blood had DNA, how could they use it in transfusions? Your is making me doubt now, though. I'm just going by what my biology teacher said. He has a doctorate, so I would assume he knows what he's talking about... Huh
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« Reply #7: May 04, 2007, 08:46:09 pm »

If blood didn't hold DNA, why would people use blood for DNA tests?  That doesn't make any sense.

Yeah, that's what I was thinking.  I know CSI isn't exactly a reliable source, but they test blood for DNA in pretty much every episode.  If that wasn't possible, I'm sure someone would have called them on it by now.
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« Reply #8: May 04, 2007, 08:50:31 pm »

It says that these bottles often contain bodily fluids to represent you, such as blood and urine. I don't really understand what real affect these substances can have because they aren't really specific to you.

With witch bottles, we're talking about magickal properties and linksg, not scientific. Smiley The urine and blood are off you, thus in a magickal sense linked to you. The organic matter of the witch bottle maker in the bottle represents the person and acts as a target - diversion to the ill effects sent to her, which would then hit the bottle, not the person.

That said, urine does have DNA, as has blood and other traditional "personal bits" put in witch bottles, like hair and pubic hair. (Here is a small paper on using DNA from urine as a potential source of identification, it's a one-page pdf-file).
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« Reply #9: May 04, 2007, 08:54:12 pm »

If blood had DNA, how could they use it in transfusions? Your is making me doubt now, though. I'm just going by what my biology teacher said. He has a doctorate, so I would assume he knows what he's talking about... Huh

Well, I know Wikipedia's not really as reliable as a biology teacher, but it looks like DNA is not important to blood compatibility:

Compatibility

Great care is taken in cross-matching to ensure that the recipient's immune system will not attack the donor blood. In addition to the familiar human blood types (A, B, AB and O) and Rh factor (positive or negative) classifications, other minor red cell antigens are known to play a role in compatibility. These other types can become increasingly important in people who receive many blood transfusions, as their bodies develop increasing resistance to blood from other people via a process of alloimmunization.
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« Reply #10: May 04, 2007, 08:58:52 pm »

If blood had DNA, how could they use it in transfusions?

This page could help you: http://www.newton.dep.anl.gov/askasci/mole00/mole00663.htm
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« Reply #11: May 04, 2007, 09:00:40 pm »

Well, I know Wikipedia's not as reliable as your biology teacher, but it looks like DNA is not important to blood compatibility:


That makes me think that he misunderstood my question. He probably answered for red blood cells and not for the whole mixture.

With witch bottles, we're talking about magickal properties and linksg, not scientific. Smiley The urine and blood are off you, thus in a magickal sense linked to you.  (Here is a small paper on using DNA from urine as a potential source of identification, it's a one-page pdf-file).

I suppose you could say that, but magic can't blatantly ignore what science says. To me, magic is just phenomena that science doesn't understand yet. If there was no other linkage between me and these things other than a "magical" one, then I don't really believe they're effective, but if there's an actual, scientific link that just hasn't been discovered yet, that I'll believe. I guess my question isn't even valid anymore since I know now my bio teacher didn't understand what I was asking him when he told me about the DNA thing.
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« Reply #12: May 04, 2007, 09:23:56 pm »

I suppose you could say that, but magic can't blatantly ignore what science says. To me, magic is just phenomena that science doesn't understand yet.


Ah. Smiley Here, we're moving into quite another field of discussion. I'd say much of magick has "always" blatantly ignored what science says. Not only what science said in history, but what's the current understanding of scientific laws. For example, items that have belonged to a given person have been and are used as a representative of the whole person, as well as images (statuettes, drawings, even photographs). It's not at all unheard of to take an object and simply declare it to represent somebody and have the working, well, work.

If there was no other linkage between me and these things other than a "magical" one, then I don't really believe they're effective, but if there's an actual, scientific link that just hasn't been discovered yet, that I'll believe.

To me, this is more of a personal belief deriving limitation than a general rule for the whole of magick.

I guess my question isn't even valid anymore since I know now my bio teacher didn't understand what I was asking him when he told me about the DNA thing.

While the scientific link to a 'donor' through DNA found in traditional witch bottle ingredients (urine, blood, hairs) has been dealt with - they do have DNA of the donor, although urine has it in too small amounts for general identification usage - this discussion has taken an interesting turn with belief of magick's boundaries.
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« Reply #13: May 04, 2007, 10:39:43 pm »

It says that these bottles often contain bodily fluids to represent you, such as blood and urine. I don't really understand what real affect these substances can have because they aren't really specific to you.

One of the "laws" of magic is the "law of contagion."  My the law of contagion, what was once a part of you is you for magical purposes. Putting bodily fluids in a witch bottle makes use of the law of contagion to connect the witch bottle to you.  The law of contagion is being used when the hair, blood, nail clippings, etc. of another are used in a spell designed to affect that person.
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« Reply #14: May 04, 2007, 10:41:11 pm »

One of the "laws" of magic is the "law of contagion."  My the law of contagion, what was once a part of you is you for magical purposes. Putting bodily fluids in a witch bottle makes use of the law of contagion to connect the witch bottle to you.  The law of contagion is being used when the hair, blood, nail clippings, etc. of another are used in a spell designed to affect that person.

How is that different from "sympathetic" magic?  Or is it a subset of sympathetic magic?
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