Porn & Paganism

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[darashand]

Things that celebrate rape, or exploitation, or other things that are morally objectionable - that's a problem.

I would agree with this as well.  I think any type of media, not just porn, that celebrates rape, exploitation, degradation, lewd, or anything of a related nature is morally wrong.

[HeartShadow - Cutethulhu]

I would agree with this as well.  I think any type of media, not just porn, that celebrates rape, exploitation, degradation, lewd, or anything of a related nature is morally wrong.

*nods* I've come across romance novels that made me SICK because they not only featured rape, but had the girl seem to be GOOD with that.

way to send the wrong message.  and how could people READ that trash?

(at least I only got it from the library!  but someone was making MONEY off those things!)

[Perzephone]

I'm sort of new in paganism and there are still lots of things I don't know about it and that I'm trying to find out.
I really need to know what is the position and point of view of paganism (wiccans, feri tradition followers, etc.) towards pornography, and I'm not talking about just watching it but more like making it or being part of it... Religions like Judaism, Catholicism and Islamism are pretty clear about letting you know that porn is wrong and evil; personally I don't believe so, and I'd really like to know what paganism thinks about it.

I'm a generic eclectic Pagan, and I admit that I enjoy sex, sexual imagery, sexual art, sexual literature... I've worked in the sex industry (as a telephone sex entertainer, in case anyone was wondering), and to me, as long as it's consensual, legal and within your own personal moral or ethical boundaries then please, find pleasure in yourself and others. We were given these marvelously sensitive bodies and incredible imaginations, might as well use 'em

[JoshuaFlame]

I'm sort of new in paganism and there are still lots of things I don't know about it and that I'm trying to find out.
I really need to know what is the position and point of view of paganism (wiccans, feri tradition followers, etc.) towards pornography, and I'm not talking about just watching it but more like making it or being part of it... Religions like Judaism, Catholicism and Islamism are pretty clear about letting you know that porn is wrong and evil; personally I don't believe so, and I'd really like to know what paganism thinks about it.

To give an answer to this is difficult since much of the issue is subjective. If you personally view porn as a healthy outlet for fantasy and sexual expression, and not as a central reality, then you are probably not violating any code that "paganism" may offer. However, the issue becomes more clouded when participants are not willing or being portrayed as unwilling. Any person who subjugates the Will of any other person, or fantasizes about doing so through porn or any other media is wrong and largely damaged on one or more levels depending on the degree of their offense. The only way to really clearly address the issue is to remove porn from the equation and deal with it from an "any media" sort of perspective since the term porn is loaded with subjective pitfalls.

This becomes more understandable when one interjects "rape fantasy" pornographic representations. No healthy mind would reasonably find the sexual, moral, practical, or physical subjugation of another human being to be sexually stimulating. It demonstrates, by definition, a lack of wisdom, evolution, and empathy.

I think that the healthy expression of one's sexuality in person or recorded media is part of being human and as such should be indulged as much as any other healthy human need requires indulgence. Sex equals life and the promulgation of the species in the sub-conscious, and therefor, is not just good, but on some level, necessary in the proper time and place for those sorts of expressions.

I hope this helps sort thing out for you.

[Kasmira]

However, the issue becomes more clouded when participants are not willing or being portrayed as unwilling. Any person who subjugates the Will of any other person, or fantasizes about doing so through porn or any other media is wrong and largely damaged on one or more levels depending on the degree of their offense...

No healthy mind would reasonably find the sexual, moral, practical, or physical subjugation of another human being to be sexually stimulating. It demonstrates, by definition, a lack of wisdom, evolution, and empathy.

Umm. Right. So you're saying that any sort of domination/subjugation in a sexual context, even when acted, is inherently wrong, even unpagan? And what about folks who find being subjugated stimulating? Is that also a sign of a "lack of... evolution"? Seems to me you're painting with a pretty broad brush there by including acted scenarios in the same bucket as actually forced acts. I think the pretty substantial BDSM community within paganism might have a few objections to that.

I guess this is a new one to add to the "you can't be pagan if..." list.

[Lenfer]

Umm. Right. So you're saying that any sort of domination/subjugation in a sexual context, even when acted, is inherently wrong, even unpagan? And what about folks who find being subjugated stimulating? Is that also a sign of a "lack of... evolution"? Seems to me you're painting with a pretty broad brush there by including acted scenarios in the same bucket as actually forced acts. I think the pretty substantial BDSM community within paganism might have a few objections to that.

I guess this is a new one to add to the "you can't be pagan if..." list.

Totally agree with you...

[dragonfaerie]

Seems to me you're painting with a pretty broad brush there by including acted scenarios in the same bucket as actually forced acts. I think the pretty substantial BDSM community within paganism might have a few objections to that.

I agree, but I also think that BDSM has little to do with real "rape fantasies". There's giving up of control to someone you trust, which is different IMO. I've done a little vanilla bondage here and there, but certainly not with someone I didn't trust 100% to stop when I said stop.

Perhaps that's a good illustration of "perfect love and perfect trust"? (Though I know that phrase is most commonly used by Wiccans and isn't universally pagan...)

Karen

[Star]

I agree, but I also think that BDSM has little to do with real "rape fantasies".

I thought that was what Kasmira was trying to say.  The poster she's replying to seems to be lumping all BDSM in with rape fantasies, and she's saying that's not accurate.

[Dark Midnight]

I thought that was what Kasmira was trying to say.  The poster she's replying to seems to be lumping all BDSM in with rape fantasies, and she's saying that's not accurate.

I agree with her. There is a saying amongst a few of my friends (some of whom are very much into BDSM) - A little BDSM never hurt anyone that didn't ask for it to.

 The BDSM crowd have rules, and very strict ones, too. They are great believers in keeping thing very much under control. Nothing is done without consent and always with safety words in place.

Most people like a little bondage, even if it is just light teeth and nails, and some people like things a little more intense. Different strokes for different folks, I guess. But none of this makes it akin to rape fantasies. Trust me on this, there is a huge difference between rape and BDSM.

[Kasmira]

I thought that was what Kasmira was trying to say.  The poster she's replying to seems to be lumping all BDSM in with rape fantasies, and she's saying that's not accurate.

Yep. That's pretty much exactly what I was getting at.

[Stitchii]

I'm a generic eclectic Pagan, and I admit that I enjoy sex, sexual imagery, sexual art, sexual literature... I've worked in the sex industry (as a telephone sex entertainer, in case anyone was wondering), and to me, as long as it's consensual, legal and within your own personal moral or ethical boundaries then please, find pleasure in yourself and others. We were given these marvelously sensitive bodies and incredible imaginations, might as well use 'em

I'm on the same page as you. We are evolving past the idea that sex is too explicit. It's in our genes to have sex. Like thinking, moving, and so on. We all think and move differently. We also embrace what we have. I embrace sex just like Perzephone. If it was a matter of someone not feeling comfortable with anything sexual, than of course I will hold my tongue. It is like the new phenomenon Twilight. There's so many addicts and so many people that absolutely hate it. You can't make people love it or hate it.

Umm. Right. So you're saying that any sort of domination/subjugation in a sexual context, even when acted, is inherently wrong, even unpagan? And what about folks who find being subjugated stimulating? Is that also a sign of a "lack of... evolution"? Seems to me you're painting with a pretty broad brush there by including acted scenarios in the same bucket as actually forced acts. I think the pretty substantial BDSM community within paganism might have a few objections to that.

I guess this is a new one to add to the "you can't be pagan if..." list.

My thoughts are the same with Kasmira. Paganism is an umberalla of different beliefs or lifestyles if you will. It's not just one way or ethics; it gives freedom to do whatever you want, and harm none of course.

[Darkhawk]

My thoughts are the same with Kasmira. Paganism is an umberalla of different beliefs or lifestyles if you will. It's not just one way or ethics; it gives freedom to do whatever you want, and harm none of course.

"And harm none of course" blatantly contradicts "It's not just one way or ethics", and is additionally completely wrong.

[Stitchii]

"And harm none of course" blatantly contradicts "It's not just one way or ethics", and is additionally completely wrong.

You confused me. Can you explain please?

[Star]

You confused me. Can you explain please?

Not Darkhawk, but it sounded like you were saying that Paganism gives one the freedom to do whatever one wants as long as it doesn't harm anyone.  Putting a condition on it like that does lay down just one way, despite your just having said that there wasn't just one way.  The "one way" here is that no harm should be done.

In addition, it's "completely wrong" because not all Pagan religions share the "harm none" ethic.  (That is, it's factually incorrect, not  morally wrong.)  In fact, I suspect you'd find that it's a great deal more complicated than "harm none" even in most religions that do share it.

[Stitchii]

Not Darkhawk, but it sounded like you were saying that Paganism gives one the freedom to do whatever one wants as long as it doesn't harm anyone.  Putting a condition on it like that does lay down just one way, despite your just having said that there wasn't just one way.  The "one way" here is that no harm should be done.

In addition, it's "completely wrong" because not all Pagan religions share the "harm none" ethic.  (That is, it's factually incorrect, not  morally wrong.)  In fact, I suspect you'd find that it's a great deal more complicated than "harm none" even in most religions that do share it.

Ah yes, I can be blunt, sorry. Ha ha. I wasn't really putting emphasis on the crede, but, yes I do know a lot of pagans, wiccans, and so on that don't really think twice about it. I'd like to say it's more like a guideline, what you do is up to you. But, I didn't mean it as a condition. More like keep it to yourself because there are people who can't really stand things like porn and such.

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