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Author Topic: Porn & Paganism  (Read 24827 times)
Darkhawk
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« Reply #30: September 21, 2009, 03:52:14 pm »

You confused me. Can you explain please?

1) "Harm none" is impossible.  Body's gotta eat.
2) If you say that paganism has multiple ways/ethics, you don't then get to say that "of course" people follow this one ethic.  Especially an impossible one.
3) Many pagans aren't Wiccan in the first place and don't have any more reason to care about the Rede (or lobotomised versions thereof like "Harm none") than they do Leviticus.

I would additionally go so far as to say that, given that "Harm none" is an impossible ethic and a perversion of the original sentiment of the Wiccan Rede, its promulgation does harm - both in setting people up for failure and in creating a false impression of Wicca.
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« Reply #31: September 21, 2009, 04:45:04 pm »

I'd like to say it's more like a guideline, what you do is up to you. But, I didn't mean it as a condition.

It's not even a guideline for many of us.  Call it a guideline, call it a condition--either way, when you present it as a universal Pagan thing, you're saying that it is the "one way" for Pagans.  It isn't.

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More like keep it to yourself because there are people who can't really stand things like porn and such.

I would tend more to say "if you're open about it, be aware that not everyone will like it and be prepared to deal with potential consequences".  I don't think that it's necessary or wise to keep things to oneself just because other people might be offended.
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« Reply #32: September 21, 2009, 06:05:14 pm »



it may be a bit off topic but i once ended up talking to a guy who worked on a "livecam" porn website (how i got there is a story and a half XD). do you realize how hard it is to carry on a conversation when
a) people keep trying to get him to take his pants off
b) the "you get to watch for 15 minutes and then you must pay" button keeps booting you off
c) your idioms don't translate because he has to use a translator program
d) you're laughing so hard you can't breathe because for the twelfth time someone tried hitting on you and couldn't even spell their innuendo right?

i made friends with a russian porn worker- yay!  Grin
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« Reply #33: October 02, 2009, 12:34:36 pm »

1) "Harm none" is impossible.  Body's gotta eat.

I don't think that "harm" in this case is an absolute.

You can't eat a bacon double cheeseburger without "harming" a pig and a cow and a few grains and vegtables, but you can thank the God and Goddess, and apologise to the spirts of the animals whose lives were taken to sustain yours.

I feel "HARM" refers to forcing your will onto others against their will, in an effort to control, dominate, enslave, enrage, upset, etc.
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« Reply #34: October 02, 2009, 12:47:56 pm »

You can't eat a bacon double cheeseburger without "harming" a pig and a cow and a few grains and vegtables, but you can thank the God and Goddess, and apologise to the spirts of the animals whose lives were taken to sustain yours.

If no harm was done, why is an apology needed?  Is killing the animal not forcing your will onto the animal, presumably against its will, and are you not thereby controlling it?  Has it not been enslaved and dominated by virtue of being a domesticated animal?  I'm not a big animal-rights activist, but I can't really see a way around the idea that domesticated animals (like most cows and most pigs, particularly the ones that would turn up in a bacon cheeseburger) are not exactly being allowed to run free and do whatever they please.  They have been bred and kept in order to serve us, feed us, give us their milk and their meat, to do as we tell them.  They are controlled, they are dominated, they are enslaved.  This seems to meet the definition you give for "harm".

Or am I misreading you and you didn't mean that eating was not actually harmful to the animals involved?

(I have several other issues with apologizing to one's food anyway, whether animal or plant, but this is probably the only one really relevant to the conversation.)
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« Reply #35: October 03, 2009, 10:46:48 am »

If no harm was done, why is an apology needed?  Is killing the animal not forcing your will onto the animal, presumably against its will, and are you not thereby controlling it?  Has it not been enslaved and dominated by virtue of being a domesticated animal?  I'm not a big animal-rights activist, but I can't really see a way around the idea that domesticated animals (like most cows and most pigs, particularly the ones that would turn up in a bacon cheeseburger) are not exactly being allowed to run free and do whatever they please.  They have been bred and kept in order to serve us, feed us, give us their milk and their meat, to do as we tell them.  They are controlled, they are dominated, they are enslaved.  This seems to meet the definition you give for "harm".

Or am I misreading you and you didn't mean that eating was not actually harmful to the animals involved?

(I have several other issues with apologizing to one's food anyway, whether animal or plant, but this is probably the only one really relevant to the conversation.)


harm, as pertained to other Human Beings.

Some would argue that (most) domesticated animals don't have it so bad. Food brought to them, in winter they don't have to dig through snow for withered, bitter plant remnants and bark while trying to avoid starvation. They are provided with nutricious food, shelter, heat, water and medical care. 
The not terrorized (for the most part) by wolves, coyotes, foxes, bobcat, lions, tigers and bears (Oh My!). As long as they are treated humanely, I don't see domestication as bad thing.
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« Reply #36: October 03, 2009, 07:25:19 pm »

1) "Harm none" is impossible.  Body's gotta eat.

Which is why that isn't really what the Rede says. Wink

If it harms none, do what you will. Doesn't tell you what to do if it does cause harm, or even what "harm" means. That's for the witch to figure out. My corollary to the statement, which a lot of folks who ascribe to the Rede seem to share, is that if you do cause harm be prepared to accept the consequences.

I define harm as "causing unnecessary suffering or damage". I'm giving up meat because I see the way we raise animals for mass consumption as causing harm to them, us, and the environment. I'm tired of accepting my share of the consequences in the form of bad health and occasional food poisoning. I'm tired of contributing to farm waste run-off into the precious Chesapeake Bay.

This choice may cut ever so slightly into an agribusiness's profit margins, but I see this as lesser harm. A lot of people aren't likely to be harmed by me giving up meat. In fact, probably no one's going to be harmed by me giving up meat.

I only see the act of eating as causing harm when we're so disconnected from our food sources that we don't respect and honor them and understand the impact our choices have. 21st century folks like their antiseptic plastic packaging and sale prices and don't really stop to connect the living chicken with the drumsticks, or the cheap apples with the pesticides and underpaid migrant workers who pick them.

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« Reply #37: October 03, 2009, 09:16:11 pm »

harm, as pertained to other Human Beings.

Why don't animals count?

Quote
Some would argue that (most) domesticated animals don't have it so bad. Food brought to them, in winter they don't have to dig through snow for withered, bitter plant remnants and bark while trying to avoid starvation. They are provided with nutricious food, shelter, heat, water and medical care. 
The not terrorized (for the most part) by wolves, coyotes, foxes, bobcat, lions, tigers and bears (Oh My!). As long as they are treated humanely, I don't see domestication as bad thing.

The animals we're talking about, though, are not pets.  They are being raised specifically to be slaughtered and eaten.   We were talking about how a bacon cheeseburger winds up on your plate, not how Fluffy is treated before she slips quietly off into the long night curled up in front of the fireplace at an advanced age.

And, again, this is not a cause I'm really that big on personally.  I know there are farms that don't treat their cattle and swine very well; there are also farms that do treat them as humanely as possible.  I don't think domestication is a bad thing.  I don't think being raised for food is necessarily equivalent to being harmed.  I do think, though, that killing something is pretty much a form of harm no matter how you look at it.  And I think if one is going to eat meat, it's a good idea to acknowledge that.  (Not wallow in guilt over it or anything.  But acknowledge it.)

I also think, btw, that domesticated animals are not always treated well, and that "as long as they are treated humanely" is a big assumption to make.  Especially with food animals.
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« Reply #38: October 03, 2009, 09:57:44 pm »

Which is why that isn't really what the Rede says. Wink

Which was the point of my characterising "Harm none" as ... what did I say, 'a lobotomised version of the Rede that makes real Wiccans look bad'? Wink
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« Reply #39: October 06, 2009, 09:20:28 am »

i think porn is not something bad.
i like amateur porn. the professional porn is so "Fake".
the amateur porn is natural
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« Reply #40: October 07, 2009, 09:49:13 pm »

Which was the point of my characterising "Harm none" as ... what did I say, 'a lobotomised version of the Rede that makes real Wiccans look bad'? Wink

Oh, I know *you* know what the Rede really says. But I know there's lots of folks here who've not heard an interpretation other than "harm none".

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« Reply #41: October 13, 2009, 05:18:03 pm »

Paganism is so broad a term that you would need to more closely define which "Branch" of the tree of Paganism that you where a part of. 
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« Reply #42: October 14, 2009, 02:19:02 pm »

I'm sort of new in paganism and there are still lots of things I don't know about it and that I'm trying to find out.
I really need to know what is the position and point of view of paganism (wiccans, feri tradition followers, etc.) towards pornography, and I'm not talking about just watching it but more like making it or being part of it... Religions like Judaism, Catholicism and Islamism are pretty clear about letting you know that porn is wrong and evil; personally I don't believe so, and I'd really like to know what paganism thinks about it.
Hm... I think that all pagan religions without exception, accept human beauty, and view sex as something normal and what  should be accepted as divine gift. So personally I think, if ancients would be alive today, they would like to see porno movies. Smiley
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« Reply #43: October 14, 2009, 10:15:26 pm »

For me it's not porn itself, but the TYPE of porn.

Things that celebrate rape, or exploitation, or other things that are morally objectionable - that's a problem.

It's not the act of sex for money, on camera or not, that's a problem - that bothers me, but it's not a religious bothered.  It's what's going on around that sex, and what that's saying to the viewer, that needs to be evaluated.
I agree with this completely. 

Sexuality is a very individual thing no matter what your religious beliefs are.  You may want to look at this from a moral side instead and ask yourself what feels right to you and is it respectful to/toward others. 

It sounds like you're very new in your beliefs, I am too.  What I've found helpful is to read and research different religions.  Read the resources here and elsewhere and find something that speaks to you. Don't be in a hurry to find yourself, take your time and explore.
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« Reply #44: October 15, 2009, 05:13:20 pm »

I see pornography as a matter of personal conscience, Pagans of many beliefs celebrate the arts and acts of sex as a part of their worship, and there are less barriers given unlike some of the faiths already mentioned. As long as it is with consenting adults only I have never seen any problems sexual acts.
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