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Author Topic: Free style poem  (Read 4134 times)
unbendingwill
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« Topic Start: August 27, 2009, 01:30:43 pm »

It's a poem I wrote back in 06/07, called Shadow Lover.  Plus in my style I don't really use punctuation except to accentuate something or add pause. And I spelled Sparklie wrong on purpose for effect.

Shadow Lover




Oh, Little Shadow Lover,
What delusions have I drowned myself in?
Too egger to please you,
Too quiet for you to notice me,
I have become the shadow
and you are my light
Dispel me
So I can move on with my life
This mascaraed has ended two years ago
And yet
I hold on to your kiss
and I melt
when ever I think of it
You inspire me to greatness
You are all I've ever wanted
You are perfect
and I am Shit!
I can not compare to your light!
I am just a dirty little shadow
the one you step all over
No wonder you look in every
direction but mine
I still hope you will see me
instead of them
All of those Sparklie Girls
All of those Pleasant distractions,
that I am not!
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darashand
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« Reply #1: August 27, 2009, 02:42:38 pm »


Well, there is a serious lack of concrete imagery with too much blantant emotion.  That's not to say it's a bad poem, but it needs a little bit of work.

You would to well to take a creative writing or poetry class, if this is something you wish to pursue.
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« Reply #2: August 28, 2009, 12:19:24 am »

Well, there is a serious lack of concrete imagery with too much blatant emotion.  That's not to say it's a bad poem, but it needs a little bit of work.

You would to well to take a creative writing or poetry class, if this is something you wish to pursue.
What does it have to be splashed with sex scenes to keep you interested?  Can't a highly emotional poem and metaphorical poem be enough for you? I'm hoping that you are trying to give constructive criticism, because I am taking it all the wrong way.  I am most certainly deeply offended, and stand by my work!  I have stood, before a room full of people, at an open Mic with the people silent, waiting for me to speak.  I have had men tell me that they hate poetry, but love my poems.  Simon Felice even loves my shit.  I don't really need to prove my self but that happens to be a dear poem of mine written during a very emotional time in my life. 

I see nothing wrong with the style of having hightly emotional poems, really it's a matter of TASTE!  It doesn't mean that I need to go to a creative writing class at all!!!
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« Reply #3: August 28, 2009, 01:10:58 am »

What does it have to be splashed with sex scenes to keep you interested?  Can't a highly emotional poem and metaphorical poem be enough for you? I'm hoping that you are trying to give constructive criticism, because I am taking it all the wrong way.  I am most certainly deeply offended, and stand by my work!  I have stood, before a room full of people, at an open Mic with the people silent, waiting for me to speak.  I have had men tell me that they hate poetry, but love my poems.  Simon Felice even loves my shit.  I don't really need to prove my self but that happens to be a dear poem of mine written during a very emotional time in my life. 

I see nothing wrong with the style of having hightly emotional poems, really it's a matter of TASTE!  It doesn't mean that I need to go to a creative writing class at all!!!

Deep breaths! darashand specifically said that she didn't consider it a bad poem, only that she felt it might need more work.

You're right that evaluating poems is a matter of taste, but you might consider finding out more about how other people evaluate poems, simply because the knowledge might enrich your poetry further.

In this case, leaving the issue of emotion aside, I don't think darashand's issue with concrete imagery is a request for 'sex scenes'. No concrete details about the speaker, or the Shadow Lover, or the Sparklie Girls, have been given. Neither are there any details of what the 'mascaraed' (masquerade?) or 'greatness' are, etc.
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« Reply #4: August 28, 2009, 09:05:04 am »

Deep breaths! darashand specifically said that she didn't consider it a bad poem, only that she felt it might need more work.

You're right that evaluating poems is a matter of taste, but you might consider finding out more about how other people evaluate poems, simply because the knowledge might enrich your poetry further.

In this case, leaving the issue of emotion aside, I don't think darashand's issue with concrete imagery is a request for 'sex scenes'. No concrete details about the speaker, or the Shadow Lover, or the Sparklie Girls, have been given. Neither are there any details of what the 'mascaraed' (masquerade?) or 'greatness' are, etc.
I always thought your imagination was a powerful tool.  I wanted to write a short but sweet poem.  I do have a whole poem describing what a Sparklie Girl is.  I wanted to leave what a mascaraed is up to you, whatever you want it to be.   I wanted you to THINK about it. Other places I have shown it, it has gotten great reviews.  Oh, well.  And spell ck is a bitch, I meant masquerade.

Example. In the story the Monkey's Paw, you never get a description of the boy who comes back from the dead, and comes a knocking at his fathers door step.  You use your imagination, as to what he looks like and that is what is supposed to scare you.  Same concept.
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« Reply #5: August 28, 2009, 09:38:12 am »

I always thought your imagination was a powerful tool.  I wanted to write a short but sweet poem.  I do have a whole poem describing what a Sparklie Girl is.  I wanted to leave what a mascaraed is up to you, whatever you want it to be.   I wanted you to THINK about it. Other places I have shown it, it has gotten great reviews.  Oh, well.  And spell ck is a bitch, I meant masquerade.

Example. In the story the Monkey's Paw, you never get a description of the boy who comes back from the dead, and comes a knocking at his fathers door step.  You use your imagination, as to what he looks like and that is what is supposed to scare you.  Same concept.

That's valid, and I do think that letting your reader's imagination fill in the blanks is often pretty effective--especially in short works where every word is precious.  I think, though, that you need to give the imagination a little nudge, something to build on.  There's "here's the general shape of it, fill in the details for yourself", and then there's "I'm just going to use this term and leave it to you to define".  I don't think the latter is as effective as the former.  The poem, as written, gives me a very very very vague idea of what a Sparklie Girl might be, but mostly just that it's someone who is...  not like the speaker.  In what ways they're not like the speaker, I can't tell, beyond that she (?) seems to feel they're a momentary distraction.  There's nothing really to build on.

For me, the issue of defining the Shadow Lover and the speaker is a bit different.  I do get some sense of this, that the speaker has been rejected by the Shadow Lover and has had a difficult time dealing with that and moving on.  The light/shadow metaphor gets a little confused for me, though.  It's unclear to me in what way the two terms are applied to the characters, that is, the way "shadow" applies to the Lover and how the speaker turns into that, and the way in which the Lover becomes light, and what it means for each of them to be in those roles.  (Also, the Sparklie Girls play in here too.  They seem to be a part of the light--sparkling is a function of light--but the poem doesn't make clear how they fit in other than, again, being not-the-speaker.)

As others are, I'm only trying to be constructive and help you here, and I hope you'll take the criticism in that spirit.  I think there's a certain amount of potential here, but I also don't think it's all it could be yet.  Wink
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« Reply #6: August 28, 2009, 10:10:52 am »

That's valid, and I do think that letting your reader's imagination fill in the blanks is often pretty effective--especially in short works where every word is precious.  I think, though, that you need to give the imagination a little nudge, something to build on.  There's "here's the general shape of it, fill in the details for yourself", and then there's "I'm just going to use this term and leave it to you to define".  I don't think the latter is as effective as the former.  The poem, as written, gives me a very very very vague idea of what a Sparklie Girl might be, but mostly just that it's someone who is...  not like the speaker.  In what ways they're not like the speaker, I can't tell, beyond that she (?) seems to feel they're a momentary distraction.  There's nothing really to build on.

For me, the issue of defining the Shadow Lover and the speaker is a bit different.  I do get some sense of this, that the speaker has been rejected by the Shadow Lover and has had a difficult time dealing with that and moving on.  The light/shadow metaphor gets a little confused for me, though.  It's unclear to me in what way the two terms are applied to the characters, that is, the way "shadow" applies to the Lover and how the speaker turns into that, and the way in which the Lover becomes light, and what it means for each of them to be in those roles.  (Also, the Sparklie Girls play in here too.  They seem to be a part of the light--sparkling is a function of light--but the poem doesn't make clear how they fit in other than, again, being not-the-speaker.)

As others are, I'm only trying to be constructive and help you here, and I hope you'll take the criticism in that spirit.  I think there's a certain amount of potential here, but I also don't think it's all it could be yet.  Wink
This is what I consider constructive criticism.  Not hurtful criticism.  There is a difference.  You gave a detailed explanation and examination.  Not a few cold harsh words!!!  There is again a difference and you just proved my point for all to see the difference!  I love the power of the written word.  Anyways, Sparklie implies that they are shinny, that they sparkle, wear make up more than the average girl, that maybe they fluff them selves up more than the average girl, you could infer that at least.  And you could go farther with assumptions like maybe she is more, at least I meant it to mean that she is a Jezebel, a slutty, dressed to the 9, kinda girl, with her face painted up, tiny mini skirt on, perfumed out, hair done up, all slutted out, just waiting for someone to sleep with her, kinda girl.  The easy, bar fly, you see at the bar.

Well, this was also part of a series, so out of context, I should have known, wouldn't of made as much sense, but he is a shadow because he comes to me in spirit.  He is a light because his soul is really bright.  We are all but shadows, shades, spirits underneath the flesh.  I am dirty because I can not compare to how bright his soul can shine.  It is just some of my insecurities shinning through, I guess.  I guess in order to decipher this poem you would really have to know me a little better to know what I was referencing and the other subjects that come up in my poems, maybe it wasn't the best piece to start off with.  I do have better, it wasn't my best, it wasn't my worst.  It just simply is.
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« Reply #7: August 28, 2009, 10:33:00 am »

Anyways, Sparklie implies that they are shinny, that they sparkle, wear make up more than the average girl, that maybe they fluff them selves up more than the average girl, you could infer that at least.  And you could go farther with assumptions like maybe she is more, at least I meant it to mean that she is a Jezebel, a slutty, dressed to the 9, kinda girl, with her face painted up, tiny mini skirt on, perfumed out, hair done up, all slutted out, just waiting for someone to sleep with her, kinda girl.  The easy, bar fly, you see at the bar.

No, it doesn't imply that, I couldn't infer that, and I couldn't go farther.  That's what I'm saying.  This is what "Sparklie" implies to you.  It might imply something completely different to me, or it might (as was actually the case) mean nothing at all.  If you put a few details like this into the poem, you'll be more certain of getting your reader pointed in the right direction.  And you can still leave a lot of the specifics to your reader's imagination--you don't have to describe every single thing about them, certainly.  But the reader needs a little something to build on, and you've not really given anything.  (This is especially true if the intentional misspelling is important, as you implied that it was.  Your readers aren't in your head; they don't know what you mean by spelling it differently, so you have to show them.  Or at least give them a peek.)

Quote
but he is a shadow because he comes to me in spirit.  He is a light because his soul is really bright. 


OK, that makes a certain kind of sense.  I'm not sure that's the best metaphor to choose, then, if that's what you're wanting to achieve.  The problem here is that when you use shadow and light as poetic metaphors, you're setting up this duality between two things, or two sides of one thing.  That works out all right when you call him the light and yourself the shadow--you're describing the contrast you see between yourself and him.  When you call him first shadow and then light, though, that also sets up the same duality...  but from what you've said here, that's not your intention.  If you're not meaning to refer to the shadow in him the same way you're referring to the shadow in yourself, I think you might want to reconsider one or the other, or both.

And, again, "sparkle" is a function of light.  That seems to draw the Sparklie Girls into this duality, too, and from what you've said it probably doesn't draw them in on the correct side.  The way you described them above, I don't think I'd call them bright souls.  (...Although.  Perhaps they merely reflect others' brightness, and that's why they sparkle rather than shine.  OK, maybe that works better than I initially thought it did.  But it's a detail to take into account, either way.)

Quote
It is just some of my insecurities shinning through, I guess.  I guess in order to decipher this poem you would really have to know me a little better to know what I was referencing and the other subjects that come up in my poems, maybe it wasn't the best piece to start off with. 

Well...  I'm of two minds here.  On the one hand, I think it's OK to have a poem that is part of a series and makes more sense when put together with the rest of the series.  It should probably also make a certain amount of sense on its own, but I think this does, so.  On the other hand, though, I do think that the poem needs to be able to communicate what you're trying to say to people who don't know you intimately and haven't read your other work, and it needs to do that without paragraphs of explanation from you.  The poem itself needs to be the explanation, if that makes sense.  I think you can probably get there from here--it just needs some work, is all.
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« Reply #8: August 28, 2009, 10:36:50 am »

This is what I consider constructive criticism.  Not hurtful criticism.  There is a difference.  You gave a detailed explanation and examination.  Not a few cold harsh words!!!  There is again a difference and you just proved my point for all to see the difference! 

As someone that's trying to make a living by her words - complaining about the type of critique you get often means you won't get any.

I get FORM LETTERS.  You got something concrete.

Do you have any idea how nice it is to get something concrete?
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« Reply #9: August 28, 2009, 10:45:20 am »

As someone that's trying to make a living by her words - complaining about the type of critique you get often means you won't get any.

As someone who's not, but who's been on both sides of the critique thing, I tend to agree.  I've had times when I thought I was being helpful and constructive, and the person whose writing I was critiquing acted like I'd just murdered their firstborn or something.  It doesn't exactly inspire me to give any further feedback to that person, and if it happens with enough people it makes me just want to give up offering critique to anyone.  Some constructive critique is more detailed, more gentle, and more balanced between good and bad than constructive critique is.  Doesn't mean they weren't both meant to be helpful, or that the short-and-blunt one was meant to be hurtful, or that it can't be helpful in its own way.
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« Reply #10: August 28, 2009, 11:11:48 am »

What does it have to be splashed with sex scenes to keep you interested?  Can't a highly emotional poem and metaphorical poem be enough for you? I'm hoping that you are trying to give constructive criticism, because I am taking it all the wrong way.  I am most certainly deeply offended, and stand by my work!  I have stood, before a room full of people, at an open Mic with the people silent, waiting for me to speak.  I have had men tell me that they hate poetry, but love my poems.  Simon Felice even loves my shit.  I don't really need to prove my self but that happens to be a dear poem of mine written during a very emotional time in my life.  

I see nothing wrong with the style of having hightly emotional poems, really it's a matter of TASTE!  It doesn't mean that I need to go to a creative writing class at all!!!

That's your problem if you chose to take it that way.  Speaking from experience, highly emotional poetry without concrete imagery  is considered to be amateurish.  Also, readers want to relate to what you are saying, not fill in the blanks themselves.  If they must, they may as well write their own poems.  And honestly, the creative writing class wasn't a "hit" on you (actually, none of what I said was).  I think every writer should study their craft, especially if they want to go far.  Taking such a class can provide invaluable tips and critiques that makes a better writer. 
« Last Edit: August 28, 2009, 11:14:12 am by darashand » Logged

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« Reply #11: August 28, 2009, 11:33:13 am »


OK, that makes a certain kind of sense.  I'm not sure that's the best metaphor to choose, then, if that's what you're wanting to achieve.  The problem here is that when you use shadow and light as poetic metaphors, you're setting up this duality between two things, or two sides of one thing.  That works out all right when you call him the light and yourself the shadow--you're describing the contrast you see between yourself and him.  When you call him first shadow and then light, though, that also sets up the same duality...  but from what you've said here, that's not your intention.  If you're not meaning to refer to the shadow in him the same way you're referring to the shadow in yourself, I think you might want to reconsider one or the other, or both.

And, again, "sparkle" is a function of light.  That seems to draw the Sparklie Girls into this duality, too, and from what you've said it probably doesn't draw them in on the correct side.  The way you described them above, I don't think I'd call them bright souls.  (...Although.  Perhaps they merely reflect others' brightness, and that's why they sparkle rather than shine.  OK, maybe that works better than I initially thought it did.  But it's a detail to take into account, either way.)

Well...  I'm of two minds here.  On the one hand, I think it's OK to have a poem that is part of a series and makes more sense when put together with the rest of the series.  It should probably also make a certain amount of sense on its own, but I think this does, so.  On the other hand, though, I do think that the poem needs to be able to communicate what you're trying to say to people who don't know you intimately and haven't read your other work, and it needs to do that without paragraphs of explanation from you.  The poem itself needs to be the explanation, if that makes sense.  I think you can probably get there from here--it just needs some work, is all.
True everyone needs an editor, even me.  But about the duality, think of it as the outside is a shadow and the inner core shines brightly.  Think of the symbolic nature of the yin and yang.  How there is light in the dark, and dark in the light.  That is what I was trying to achieve, in a sense.  I actually do appreciate you taking the time to converse with me.  Your ability to dissect and comment on is soothing to me.
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« Reply #12: August 28, 2009, 11:35:45 am »

True everyone needs an editor, even me.  But about the duality, think of it as the outside is a shadow and the inner core shines brightly.  Think of the symbolic nature of the yin and yang.  How there is light in the dark, and dark in the light.  That is what I was trying to achieve, in a sense.  I actually do appreciate you taking the time to converse with me.  Your ability to dissect and comment on is soothing to me.


As we say in my critique group -

if it's not on the page, it's not there.  You can't explain it to the reader.

Unless you're only going to let people read it when you're right there to explain it, of course.  In which case, why read it? Cheesy
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« Reply #13: August 28, 2009, 11:38:33 am »

As someone that's trying to make a living by her words - complaining about the type of critique you get often means you won't get any.

I get FORM LETTERS.  You got something concrete.

Do you have any idea how nice it is to get something concrete?
I do actually appreciate a concrete response.  I thought what Star was saying was well thought out, insightful, and intelligent.  I enjoyed her critique very much.  It forced me to re look at the poem and think about it for a bit. 
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« Reply #14: August 28, 2009, 11:45:57 am »

I do actually appreciate a concrete response.  I thought what Star was saying was well thought out, insightful, and intelligent.  I enjoyed her critique very much.  It forced me to re look at the poem and think about it for a bit. 

I was referring to the other response.  Darashand's.

Star is a wonderful critiquer.  I wish she still had the time to go over my novels, though I understand why she doesn't.

But really, ANY comment should be thanked.  Don't like it, don't use it - but Darashand's was concrete and useable.  The tone might not be what you wanted, but I can see how it was meant to be used.

And as someone that gets form letters (got another form rejection again this morning) .. ANY response that's more than that is something you can work with.
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